Labour Leader: Keir Starmer II
- Thread starter droodzilla
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Tony L
Administrator
This little history lesson on Wikipedia is interesting/depressing. To summarise; since the party’s creation the only successful Labour leaders have been Clement Attlee, Harold Wilson and Tony Blair. Just three people in well over a century. Everyone else (McDonald, Callaghan, Brown etc) either failed to win a majority, acted as a short-term caretaker or failed entirely against the Tories in a general election. In that same time-frame eleven Tories have won a majority.
PS From my perspective this is just further evidence that we don’t live in anything even approaching a representative democracy, the whole thing is shit on a stick as far as I’m concerned. I bet not one of those governments actually achieved a mandate from over 50% of people of voting age so had no right to the dictatorship they took for a term or more. Many of the early elections were before many (e.g. women) even had the right to vote, such was the inherent bias of our system. Before that lies slavery, tyranny, imperialism etc.
PS From my perspective this is just further evidence that we don’t live in anything even approaching a representative democracy, the whole thing is shit on a stick as far as I’m concerned. I bet not one of those governments actually achieved a mandate from over 50% of people of voting age so had no right to the dictatorship they took for a term or more. Many of the early elections were before many (e.g. women) even had the right to vote, such was the inherent bias of our system. Before that lies slavery, tyranny, imperialism etc.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Another perspective:
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1291418761346465794
I've seen stuff about the age divide before but those numbers are quite startling. They also tend to undermine the prevailing narrative that "Labour has lost the working class" since the party has a small but significant polling lead among people who have to work.
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1291418761346465794
I've seen stuff about the age divide before but those numbers are quite startling. They also tend to undermine the prevailing narrative that "Labour has lost the working class" since the party has a small but significant polling lead among people who have to work.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
If our politics is systematically flawed, should we acquiesce with it gain power, challenge it head on, or pretend to acquiesce with a view to changing the system once in power?
Tony L
Administrator
My view is all non-Tory parties need to unify fully behind true proportional representation. The exact same pledge should appear in every party’s manifesto right across the board. The problem is it will never happen as Labour is still a ‘career party’, such an establishment. Just as much as the Tories in many respects with countless MPs in seats where no matter how awful they are at their jobs they will get voted back in for life and later end up in the HoL. It is a safe corporate career path and sadly too many trough-feeders in the ranks will never give that up. This is a key reason I have long felt the Labour party is entirely unfit for purpose and always vote for one of the PR-supporting parties. I’d figured out the electoral system was utter bollocks long before I was even able to vote. Growing up in a Tory safe seat does that to a person!
I really do think we need a shake-up politically. Leave the Tories with their history of slave trading, denying women and the poor the vote, their inherited land ownership, their millionaire’s education, their gowns, tights, Black Rod, monarchy, Queens Speech and all that archaic shite. That is just what they are, they’ll never change. The left and centre of politics should be fighting in a unified manner to implement a true modern representative democracy with a proper constitution and bill of rights. It should be fighting to move the country into the 21st century.
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
It depends. How quickly do you want that change to happen? Do you trust any politician to be elected on a "get me in and I'll change things" ticket to deliver once in?
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Agree with much of that, however, Labour are not exceptional. Let’s not forget that it was who Clegg chose to give us 10 years of Tory austerity and attacks on public services rather than side with Brown and also threw away pledges on PR and tuition fees into the bargain. Nor should we forget Swinson who rejected calls from left, right and centre to forge an anti Tory/anti hard-Brexit alliance in favour of pursuing personal ambition.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
No, any politician who promises one thing and intends to delivers another has compromised their integrity before they start
Tony L
Administrator
Agreed, all fall far short of the mark IMO. My hope is Layla Moran can build the Lib Dems back into what they really should be, assuming of course she gets the job.
Sadly I don’t think Labour is fixable. It is just too riddled with the past in so, so many ways, and that’s everything from the 1970s trade union trough-feeders, the UKIP gammon, the Republican imperialism such Iraq, the total incoherent cluster**** of focus groups, policy recursion and dithering of recent years etc. It really is a dinosaur looking for a museum. Being archaic and obsolete suits the Tories, it is what they are at their core DNA, but the left needs to be a dynamic forward-looking 21st century entity. There are a lot of Labour MPs I really like, some thoroughly decent people in the ranks, but really the whole thing needs ripping down and rebuilding from scratch IMHO.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Since that isn't going to happen (and, if it did, it would guarantee Tory rule for decades), what practical suggestions do you have for change?
Layla Moran seems like a decent politician so I'm surprised to see Ed Davey is currently favourite to become the next Lib-Dem leader. Seems like a huge error not to embrace change but maybe they'e just another bunch of dinosaurs.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
how do you do that democratically? And what party has any sort of vision for what this post revolution political system would look like?
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Too far to the left for the LDs perhaps. They're Tories economically in the main without the xenophobia of the current Tory party.
Tony L
Administrator
That is highly annoying, I’d not looked for a few weeks, and she was comfortably ahead then. I really will be disappointed if she doesn’t get the role as I want something worthwhile to vote for!
Recent years of endless factional infighting has shown the whole Labour party structure to be broken, stagnant and corrupt to its core. That really isn’t for me to sort out. My only power is not to vote for them, which I won’t!
wylton
Naim and Mana member
I quite agree that we need a shake-up politically, but I absolutely disagree that the lib-dems are the party to do it; they had their chance to shine and made a complete balls-up of it and would never get my vote.
Tony L
Administrator
I’m not saying the LDs are the party do do it, though it is abundantly clear Labour aren’t as they don’t even want parliamentary reform, it just isn’t in their manifesto! The LDs are part of the picture though as at least they argue for implementing a proper democracy, as do the Greens.
I’d love to see all of them have the basic integrity and lack of tribalism and ego to grasp that a rebuild is needed and go on to form a new green centre-left social democratic party with none of the ugly historical baggage of Labour or the LDs. To grasp that the first stage is to implement a functional democracy, and leave any divisions until after that point. Just a one-off hit to get PR over the line. There are sadly way too many vested interests for that to ever happen, so it won’t, and we’ll likely be stuck with Tory elitism and corruption for the rest of my life. I don’t see any way out when the system is so clearly broken by design and those with all the power wanting to keep it that way. I’d be amazed if Labour ever stood up for parliamentary reform even now they are clearly losing election after election to an increasingly ugly and xenophobic right. Way too many of them are at the feeding trough and they like it that way.
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