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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer II

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droodzilla said:
Yes, good point. An analogous argument against PR is that it favours a middle-ground mush, and blocks significant change to the status quo. If significant change is needed, this is a real drawback. However, all things considered, it's a risk I'm willing to take right now.
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When the Overton window is showing a lovely view of a biological waste dump, a bit of boring suburbia would be a nice change of scene.
 
Criticism of Labour and Starmer can be very safely ignored right now, they are doing ok. Anyone who thinks the questions Marr put to Starmer were anything other than idiotic, headline hunting needs to look again with the anti-Labour specs put firmly to one side. Starmer was spot on throughout.
 
droodzilla said:
Yes, good point. An analogous argument against PR is that it favours a middle-ground mush, and blocks significant change to the status quo. If significant change is needed, this is a real drawback. However, all things considered, it's a risk I'm willing to take right now.
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If you just consider where we are right now with gross corruption (£bns of tax money going to Tory donors for undelivered contracts etc), the total mishandling of covid 19, the economic disaster of an impending ‘no deal’ Brexit, political careers for life etc etc I am absolutely certain a proper PR solution based on the results of even the last disastrous election would have blocked the vast majority of issues.

I actually like the moderation and balance of PR, it stops the craziness of either political extreme and seems to balance out to a progressive centre-left in most countries (excepting Israel, which is obviously in a unique situation). Evidence suggests this is what tends to work the best, the PR based countries just seem to be better run overall, have better infrastructure etc. I’m sure there would be a period of instability in the UK initially as a load of fascist shit would gain some momentum (Farage, Yaxley Lennon etc), but they would be countered by a massively increased Green vote, so it would all come out in the wash. I just don’t see anything like Trump, Johnson or whatever right-wing popularism ever gaining absolute power in a PR system.
 
The growth of the right over the past decade is a direct result of the failure of centre ground politics - people need to grasp that. The progressive parties in Europe and North America need serious solutions that will deliver to the disaffected. I've not read Another Now yet but it seems like a good start from Varoufakis. XR is also showing how 'democracy' might evolve for the better...
 
gavreid said:
The growth of the right over the past decade is a direct result of the failure of centre ground politics - people need to grasp that. The progressive parties in Europe and North America need serious solutions that will deliver to the disaffected. I've not read Another Now yet but it seems like a good start from Varoufakis. XR is also showing how 'democracy' might evolve for the better...
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This is my ultimate concern. I understand the desire for a return to "normality" and I'll allow myself a tiny cheer if Trump is defeated, and if Labour win on a "do nothing" platform in 2024. However, without more far-reaching social-democratic change, both will merely be interludes in the inexorable drift to the right we've seen over the last 10-20 years (an acceleration of the trend since the late 1970s).
 
The more I hear Starmer say that he supports this governments aims and objectives but Johnson is incompetent, the more I think he just wants to deliver Tory policies but more competently
 
Brian you are wrong, really wrong.

My Tory councillor son is now becoming worried on the recent bout of door knocking. People who abstained from voting Labour in the last election are now going back to Labour for two main reasons.

The first and most common reason is that the fear factor of Corbyn is now gone. Corbyn may have been a nice old grandad type of guy but his policies scared the living daylights out of loads of people. He just was not 2020 material and his departure from the scene has brought a lot of old supporters back to Labour.

Secondly, Starmer is coming across better than expected and him being a pale Tory is taking some votes away from the Tory party. This is what Blair brilliantly did in 1997.

The days of the Tories being a dead cert to win the next election is no longer guaranteed.

Starmer made it clear that he wants and, indeed, expects an exit agreement on Brexit to be concluded by the end of the year and failure on an agreement will purely be down to incompetence of the Tories. This is good news for the old Labour voters up north who voted blue against their natural instincts. The "borrowed" voted is now more likely to slide back to Labour.

I suppose this is good news for most conservative type voters as both Labour and Tories are now becoming to look like twins, they will get the Tory policies what they want no matter which party wins.

However for the hard left, it is now certainly game over as Corbyn totally blew their chances for a long time to come. He did as much to destroy socialism as Margaret Thatcher did.
 
Look at the breaking news over Johnson’s secret visit to his favourite Russian oligarch in Italy, in secret last weekend. The Prime Minister is a national security risk.
 
TheDecameron said:
Look at the breaking news over Johnson’s secret visit to his favourite Russian oligarch in Italy, in secret last weekend. The Prime Minister is a national security risk.
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He always was, it’s one of the few things he is consistent on.
 
Seanm said:
Some positive signs:

https://twitter.com/fisherandrew79/status/1307780062209597440?s=21


“Labour commits to:
✅Creation of a national education service guaranteeing learning for ages
✅Replacement of tuition fees with maintenance grants
✅Local control of free schools and academies
✅Ending tax exemptions for private schools”
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It shows the members are still committed which is a good thing clearly, whether a future government under Starmer would deliver is another matter altogether. Labour has a long, sordid history of ignoring conference policy decisions.
 
Seanm said:
Some positive signs:

https://twitter.com/fisherandrew79/status/1307780062209597440?s=21


“Labour commits to:
✅Creation of a national education service guaranteeing learning for ages
✅Replacement of tuition fees with maintenance grants
✅Local control of free schools and academies
✅Ending tax exemptions for private schools”
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Good to see, and quite a canny pitch to the liberal middle classes who surely approve of the abolition of tuition fees.
 
droodzilla said:
Good to see, and quite a canny pitch to the liberal middle classes who surely approve of the abolition of tuition fees.
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The commitment to take back control of academies and free schools is the biggie. If Academisation is not checked, further opening up of education to private interests will likely follow, and once underway, will pave the way for further privatisation of health

50367273626_829d7900de_b.jpg
 
Mick P said:
Brian you are wrong, really wrong.

My Tory councillor son is now becoming worried on the recent bout of door knocking. People who abstained from voting Labour in the last election are now going back to Labour for two main reasons.

The first and most common reason is that the fear factor of Corbyn is now gone. Corbyn may have been a nice old grandad type of guy but his policies scared the living daylights out of loads of people. He just was not 2020 material and his departure from the scene has brought a lot of old supporters back to Labour.

Secondly, Starmer is coming across better than expected and him being a pale Tory is taking some votes away from the Tory party. This is what Blair brilliantly did in 1997.

The days of the Tories being a dead cert to win the next election is no longer guaranteed.

Starmer made it clear that he wants and, indeed, expects an exit agreement on Brexit to be concluded by the end of the year and failure on an agreement will purely be down to incompetence of the Tories. This is good news for the old Labour voters up north who voted blue against their natural instincts. The "borrowed" voted is now more likely to slide back to Labour.

I suppose this is good news for most conservative type voters as both Labour and Tories are now becoming to look like twins, they will get the Tory policies what they want no matter which party wins.

However for the hard left, it is now certainly game over as Corbyn totally blew their chances for a long time to come. He did as much to destroy socialism as Margaret Thatcher did.
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Which bit am I wrong about, Mick? I said Starmer is doing fine. He is certainly not even close to the bunch of extreme right fascists currently running the tory part.
 
Brian said:
Which bit am I wrong about, Mick? I said Starmer is doing fine. He is certainly not even close to the bunch of extreme right fascists currently running the tory part.
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Brian, yes from my perspective and most of us in the Tory Party, Starmer is indeed doing well in ridding Labour of the old fashioned lefties and dragging it back into the 3rd Millennium which it badly needed.

My point is quite simple, he will slide more to the right as he cottons on that sliding to the right will fetch extra votes as long as he keeps the northern voters happy by hammering the Brexit policies pushed by the Tories as wishy washy. Both he and Boris are desperate for those blue wall seats and they will both play to the gallery to get them.

Starmer is no Milliband, he is another Tony Blair and just as clever. He is currently playing his cards very well in the sense that he almost seems to be setting targets for Boris to achieve and if Boris does not achieve those Tory style targets, many of his supporters will slide back to Labour. Starmer is playing a blinder.

Believe me, the Tories are worried for the first time in years.
 
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