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Labour at it again... anti-Semitism... #II

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Stunsworth, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. flatpopely

    flatpopely Prog Rock/Moderator

    No, I’m saying Labour need to have a united front and address its issues in a way the public will understand.
  2. jackbarron

    jackbarron Chelsea, London

    I think you're right. Any journalist who has worked for the Sun is suspicious in my book.

    Tim Civil Servant - at least that's what I think he is - jumped down my throat for saying I didn't trust the BBC since Savile and if I want to watch the news I tend to look at Al Jazeera. I do however think anti-Semitism is problem in Labour and would watch Panorama.

    Tim Civil Servant appears to be part of the establishment. He said he knows the Panorama journalist, John Ware, and what a jolly good and accurate chap he is. From recollection, Tim tends to support anything which will do May, or the Tories, good and will clap when Corbyn and Labour get it in the backside.

    I asked Tim if he'd seen the Is Labour Anti-Semitic programme before he posted a put-down of me, but didn't heard anything back.

    Labour has an anti-Semite problem, but I certainly don't particularly trust John Ware or the BBC. For anybody who saw his Panorama programme, watch The Lobby Part 1: Young Friends of Israel/An Al Jazeera Investigation below and spot some of the whistleblowers.


    cooky1257 and ks.234 like this.
  3. foxwelljsly

    foxwelljsly Keep Music Vile

    It's a shame. They could really do with Alastair Campbell right now.

    Havent seen the programme, but whilst I'm sure there is some anti-semitism buried in their pro-palestinian rhetoric, I'm pretty sure this is really all about the long term petty bickering between Corbyn and Hodge who have a very long history of really not liking each other very much. That Corbyn and Milne have utterly failed to put this to bed raises serious questions about how easy it might be to derail any ruling administration they might form part of.
  4. jackbarron

    jackbarron Chelsea, London

    It hasn't worked out well at all. This afternoon I went to see a mate I've known since 1988. He campaigns for Labour and has a radio show on Resonance in London. He interviewed Ken Livingstone the other week.

    We talked about anti-Semitism. He hadn't seen the Panorama programme, but says media accusations about Labour being institutionally anti-Semitic are a deliberate smear.

    I can partially go along with this. The right-wing press and broadcasters don't like the idea of having a socialist PM. However my mate then said he thinks Corbyn and Labour have been stupid and very slow trying to handle the accusations.

    Told him the chances are I will vote Green in a general election. That amounts to voting for the Tories, he moaned. No it doesn't, I said, it means I will be voting for a Party because I like their policies and for me Brexit is the major issue. I don't want it to happen.

    My mate then argued that Labour want a second Referendum, which will include the choice of Remain.

    Yeah, but that is only in the case of a May,Tory or No Deal. Corbyn hasn't said what side Labour will support, if they get into power and he negotiates a deal.

    My mate shut up then, after saying he hated me because I was a turncoat. I told him to "Fur cough."

    No doubt the argument will continue ...

    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
    Still likes this.
  5. hermit

    hermit pfm Member

    If you're turning away from the Labour party because they it has become a cesspit of anti-semitism, where Jews are made to feel unwelcome and unsafe simply because they are Jews, you're a man of principle not a turncoat.
    JonR, Tim Jones and Still like this.
  6. Still

    Still he said his naim was ralph

    Denied many aspects of it, dubious use of NDAs re: victims, etc.

    Criticising Mark Wade, and especially before the programme aired, was an example of deflection.

    Denying and deflecting aspects of it.
    If Labour had've put all of the effort exerted on this in to eradicating AS it would've been taken care of long ago.

    It's a simple choice of of tolerating bigotry, or not.
  7. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones pfm Member

    Well trolled sir.

    stephen bennett likes this.
  8. Mullardman

    Mullardman Moderately extreme...

    The operative word of course being 'If' Despite all of the noise, I simply refuse to believe that Labour is a fundamentally AS party.
    stephen bennett likes this.
  9. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    No, AS not denied.

    John Ware?

    Nor agreeing with biased inaccurate reporting is only deflection if you take a very particular point of view. Other posters seem to take the view that accepting biased inaccurate reporting is an example of naïveté. Dammed if you do, damned if you don’t

    Actually tackling bigotry is far from being as easy.
  10. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    I watched the thing. Extraordinary that anyone should still be defending Ware's reputation. Massively irresponsible: anyone interested in denying the problem can simply point to that program and say, See?
    maxflinn likes this.
  11. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    And I'm saying even if Labour did what you say it will make no difference as far as the BBC goes. Whatever Labour does that could be seen as "a good thing" will be ignored by the BBC while instead they make a headline of Corbyn seen scratching his arse in public rather than report on the latest Tory cut to < insert any public service here >.
    stephen bennett likes this.
  12. stephen bennett

    stephen bennett Mr Enigma

    As I said earlier, Corbyn is seen as pro-Palestinian and there are parts of the establishment that want to bring him down for that.

    Nothing Labour can do will stop this happening. Nothing at all. No number of exclusions or inquiries will stop this accusation. It has the double whammy of being an easy deflection from Labour’s manifesto and criticism of the Conservatives.

    As Jack has pointed out, the more one looks at the Panorama programme and the people involved, the more it smells funny.

    All institutions will contain racists. Few are institutionally racist. I can think of one that is though and it is one that the BBC gives an extraordinary amount of airtime to with little criticism.

    maxflinn likes this.
  13. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I don’t think anyone (obviously including huge, huge numbers of Jewish folk) have the slightest issue with feeling for the plight of the Palestinians. The problem comes when so many on the left see things in the most simplistic binary way and turn an entirely blind-eye to the anti-democratic religious terrorism/fascism and dictatorship that surrounds Israel on all sides, obviously including Hamas & Hezbollah.

    I have had to remove literally 100s of posts from this site that are *clearly* anti-Semitic or link to the very worst kind of far-left propaganda conspiracy sites, all coming from folk who are likely well meaning but have ended up in ugly mouth-frothing echo-chambers full of visceral hatred towards the only democracy in the whole area. There are clearly many arguments to be made against Netanyahu/Likud and the disgusting illegal behaviour of ‘settlers’ etc, but anyone with the slightest intellect can make such points without resorting to racist stereotypes. Sadly far to many on the far-left lack this ability to my eyes. If I see it here on a site with a demographic bright/successful enough to be able to drop an average year’s salary on a stereo I hate to think what the Labour party has to deal with! I am seriously shocked by some of the shit I’ve had to remove here.
  14. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    OK, but the democratic process that enables members to elect leader and deputy leader has produced Tom Watson, a man who has attacked Corbyn at every opportunity in pursuit of his own political ambitions and has been instrumental in exploiting division to his own ends.

    One valid way to present a united front to address issues would be to replace Watson with someone who has party unity as a priority.

    But the Corbyn would be called a Stalinist. Again.
    maxflinn likes this.
  15. flatpopely

    flatpopely Prog Rock/Moderator

    So should they just give up then and accept that the general public see the party as AS?
    As a start they should at least be united, when a party has a leader and deputy at odds with each other that's not going to help and also not something that the BBC can alter.
    jackbarron and Still like this.
  16. flatpopely

    flatpopely Prog Rock/Moderator

    Or replace Corbyn?
  17. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Just replace him? Murder him with a ice pick to the head at least, surely?
  18. flatpopely

    flatpopely Prog Rock/Moderator

    Poetic but illegal.
  19. SteveT

    SteveT pfm Member

    Tony has summed it up very well indeed. There are far too many people with small minds and big mouths who are unable/unwilling to take the time and trouble to look at the whole picture. They think they are still sitting cross legged in the sixth form common room mouthing "Right On, Man" platitudes. "Real Heavy,Man"...... Israel is not a paradigm of virtue and democracy and as far as I am aware neither are a lot of other countries that posters on PFM are constantly pointing to. I have no problem with Jeremy Corbyn being a hard lined supporter of Palestinian issues and supporter of the IRA. What I have a problem with his blindness/shortsightednesss/wilful disinterest in the whole picture and the narrow field of vision of what he chooses to believe.

    Just as a matter of interest. Has Jeremy Corbyn ever condemned unequivocally the atrocities committed by Hezbollah and Hamas on their own people and innocent Jewish civilians? Please give me five minutes so that I can get behind the sofa and barricade myself in from any incoming flak.
    hermit likes this.
  20. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    As has been posted already, it's not that easy to deal with bigotry but now is your chance to explain what you would have Labour do and why it is simple?

    I'm not convinced the "general public" sees the party as anti-semitic despite the best efforts of tories to make it stick. Outside of the tory media and pfm, I haven't come across anybody who has mentioned the Labour party and anti-semitism as a subject.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019

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