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Labour at it again... anti-Semitism... #II

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Stunsworth, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. Mullardman

    Mullardman Moderately extreme...

    My priorities are fine thanks. I've never had cause to fall out with you Still and I've never been accused of supporting bigotry of any kind, in all of the 16 years I've been posting here. You are, sady, sailing very close to doing so.

    I didn't say you had. But it seems the media and the BBC in particular do so almost daily.
    Covkxw likes this.
  2. Still

    Still he said his naim was ralph

    I didn't say you supported bigotry. istm you are at least partially blind to Labour's AS problems.

    Fair enough. Do you have an example to cite of Auntie asking such a loaded question?
  3. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    I don't think anyone would deny Corbyn's right to criticise Israel. But perhaps his obsessive hammering on the subject (which really has nothing much to do with a British political party's programme/platform) has attracted to the Labour Party people who may also be anti-semitic (whatever, exactly, that may mean) and have visions of global plots of bankers, multinationals, and Jews. For Corbyn, perhaps, attacking Israel produces cheers of support from many in his audiences and is thus gratifying. But it may be more difficult for him to express economic or social programmes that sound plausible. (I remember something he said a couple of years ago about giving ownership of the means of production to the workers that sounded definitely disturbing).
    These are only the thoughts of a poor, ignorant foreigner.
    bob atherton likes this.
  4. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    You seem more comfortable with the rich being in charge of the 'means of production'. That's essentially 'capitalism' and the other 'socialism', for want of better words. Corbyn is being forced by the defenders of Trump, and his major ally in the Middle East, to talk about Israel in much the same way the 80s were about South Africa.
  5. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    Shareholders are not necessarily rich. Some are, some are not. Nothing intrinsically wrong with capitalism, I think we all live in capitalist countries, don't we? The UK, even under Socialist governments, has always been 'capitalist' apart from nationalised industries, which has not always been an economic Utopia, I think you'll agree. I think "social democracy" is a good compromise, when it works it is great.
    bob atherton, SteveS1 and Still like this.
  6. Cav

    Cav pfm Member

    The privatisation of the essential utilities has, without doubt, driven down costs and improved efficiency - it must have done because the profit driven private sector is always better value than any other system?
    kendo likes this.
  7. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    Capitalism is just the most recent form (historically speaking) of organising our economies. It's certainly the most advanced, but I think its limitations are becoming obvious - apart from the cycle of booms and slumps, it's putting untold wealth in the hands of the very few (globally speaking) i.e. the corporations. The issue is, how can that be changed, and nobody really has identified a mechanism other than Marx (and variants thereof).
  8. stephen bennett

    stephen bennett Mr Enigma

    I may have asked before and you may have answered. If so, forgive me.

    But what would need to happen, in your opinion, to consider the matter regarding anti semitism in the LP Closed?

    I think this is a really important point. And one I can’t see the end of.

  9. Still

    Still he said his naim was ralph

    Sorry if I missed the question Stephen - it was unintentional.
    What would satisfy me, or imo what should Labour do?

    Only if you want to deflect, and let the AS problem fester a bit longer. This continues to be self defeating.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  10. stephen bennett

    stephen bennett Mr Enigma

    I think the two are connected, maybe?

    If Labour could satisfy you that it had done enough, I’m pretty convinced there’d be nothing else it could do if there were further claims of anti-semitism. If you get my drift.

    I think some of us are wondering how the hell Labour can ever be free of these accusations—or even if it can.

  11. Still

    Still he said his naim was ralph

    Yes - good point re: connected. No expertise here, so wish me luck ...

    There's no way to erase what has happened, so grow/learn and move on.
    As far as it's possible to draw a line: the AS problem within must be 100% owned by Labour.
    What Labour does to solve the problems needs to be effective, transparent and open.

    The less whataboutery re: Con Islamophobia problems the better.
    None would be ideal & esp' from the big guns and official channels.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
    stephen bennett and lordsummit like this.
  12. Mullardman

    Mullardman Moderately extreme...

    Which of course is your interpretation of my views. The reality is that I am very much aware of the problem which accusations and allegations of endemic AS are causing to the Labour Party. I don't buy the 'endemic', or 'institutionalised' AS meme which seems to be the BBC default position on this issue. I'm sure that like any organisation, Labour has, and always will have, some who are AS. Beyond that, it is difficult to know the true extent of whatever AS exists, since the whole issue is now hopelessly entangled with internal opposition to Corbyn, internal in-fighting in general and the continued failure on the part of many to clearly distinguish between AS and anti Israeli sentiment.

    Well not if you persist in sticking to the letter of what I wrote, but if you were to operate within the spirit of what I wrote, and just listen to the BBC.. On major news programmes the BBC is not heard to question whether AS exists within Labour, but only to question how Labour proposes to deal with it. I.E. The BBCs working assumption is that AS is a thing within Labour.
    Brian likes this.
  13. Mullardman

    Mullardman Moderately extreme...

    So not only do you accept all allegations..( 'what has happened' ) without question, and demand that Labour does the same... but you also want to discourage people from looking into similar allegations against the Tories?

    Brian likes this.
  14. Still

    Still he said his naim was ralph

    There is much robust/credible evidence of a specific problem which has developed in the last four or so years.
    All in the public domain, so your denial is a puzzle.

    In many ways difficult, hopelessly entangled/imposible to solve imo no.
    Resolution is achievable if supported by tptb, but no denying it will hurt a bit.

    I listen to Auntie, but don't recognise your characterisation of the items.

    This is all due to the robust/credible evidence.

    iiuc hence Labour not litigating against the BBC.

    thrice no

    "All allegations" is overreach. The robust/credible evidence has yet to be convincingly refuted.

    I'm not demanding it of Labour.
    istm very import Labour address the AS problem equally b/c anti-Semitism is fecked up sh1t, and it's significantly harming election prospects.

    I couldn't get more behind any and all looking into Islamophobia in Con PPP.
    But for Labour to raise it in context of their AS problems is deflection and disingenuous.
    (Almost) any lil' fish knows this isn't a good look, and usually self-defeating.
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  15. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    I believe that the Labour leadership accepts that AS is a thing within Labour. Which is why using expensive lawyers and gagging orders is such a bad look.
  16. bob atherton

    bob atherton pfm Member

    But key people, within Labour, have said that AS is a thing within Labour
    doctorf and Still like this.
  17. jackbarron

    jackbarron Chelsea, London

    it was interesting to see Emily Thornberry interviewed by Andrew Marr today. She accepts there is AS in Labour. Changes have been made and things have improved, but it is still a problem.

    Panorama didn't however look properly at the changes Labour have made, she says, but this doesn't diminish the AS problem.

    Indeed in Thornberry's department there is a Jewish woman who won't say she works for her, in social situations with other Jewish people, because it will cause too much trouble.

    Thornberry thinks one of the reasons why AS is still a problem is because Shami Chakrabati's recommendations haven't been implemented properly.

    Chakrabarti said, according to Thornberry, that the Party needed to have a quasi-judicial process independent of politicians to deal with allegations of AS, but these recommendations haven't been implemented in full or fast enough.

    Thornberry says Labour should open its doors to the Equalities and Human Rights Commission, who are investigating the Party for AS and racism. The Party should work with them hand in hand.

    All of this made sense to me. It's kind of a shame she isn't the leader of the Labour Party.

    Still and Woodface like this.
  18. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK Waiting for the streetcar..

    Patience, Jack. After the party loses the Autumn 2019 GE, she will be.
    Still likes this.
  19. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    It was people from Iain McNicol’s time that blocked the Chakrabarti report. I’ve heard it said that one of them was on the Panorama prog
    jackbarron, Enfield boy and Still like this.
  20. Frankiesays

    Frankiesays Rats is life.

    So many leftists will consistently post anti Israel material, and completely ignore the rest of the middle east, even the rest of the world. So China inters millions of Muslims, nothing, Assad slaugters hundreds of thousands of his own people, nilch. Israel kills a handful of protesters, the anti Israel posts appear, one after the other, all condemning the 'racist' regime. I call it education by memes, or a lack of real interest in solving the worlds problems, a stupid tit for tat point scoring game against right wing opponents. Is Israel a racist regime? Is Assad a mass murdering Hitleresque scumbag? Is the mediaeval theocratic state of Saudi Arabia a really horrible place to live if you're a woman, gay or have questions about state control? Is China a totalitarian state that is currently rounding up hundreds of thousands of Muslims to be 're-educated'? Yes lets focus on Israel because America is so intertwined with it and its creation! Are many parts of Africa ran by mass murdering military heads of state? Funny how African states never get any criticism! Oh may'be that's because America isn't so involved in its recent history. I say from now on we boycott Chinese goods, you know because they do bad things.
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
    AndyU and doctorf like this.

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