Labour at it again... anti-Semitism... #II

[Arkless Electronics]

Jez the post contained at least one antisemitic trope (Israelis controlling the world, basically), in the context of which a lot of the rest of it could be seen in the same way. I didn't report it, but I did use it as an indication of how difficult policing this issue is, and simply expelling members who unknowingly repeat common tropes is not necessarily the right way to go.

I couldn't have wished for a better example of exactly what I was saying in the removed post!!
I did not accuse Israel specifically of controlling the world in any way shape or form!! I said they were de facto members of the whole of "The Wests" military-industrial-financial-security complex.... no more or less than as are the UK, USA, Germany etc etc and that TPTB in all this don't want a Corbyn gov to make any changes to this.

Any discussion of international politics etc is going to mention money, power, military etc... this IS politics. If I'd said USA or Germany etc have money and power and use it to further their ends then no one would have looked twice at it. It would have been "no shit Sherlock... wealthy influential country uses this wealth and influence in its own interests... well I never..."

The fact that increasingly over the past 2 years or so any criticism of Israel will have people finely sieving it to see if they can find any trace of a non existent AS trope was one of my major points and you've done just that!

 

[Vinny]

For once, I think I agree with Jez.

I am not going to look up where and when it happened, but the "recognised definition" of anti-Semitism has relatively recently come to include criticism of Israel, which really means Israeli politics, because if the huge majority of people do criticise Israel, that is what they are attacking.

Israeli politics stink. Israel's regard for humans rites stinks. Israel's regard for anyone in this world except Jews, and Jewish Israelis in particular, stinks.

I am no "ist", most especially no racist or anti-Semitist, I just cannot abide lack of regard for anyone else, of any kind whatsoever.
That said, the mess is courtesy of the allies at the end of WW2 - OK - this land here - this is Israel...…………………….. **** what anyone else thinks.

 

[FireMoon]

https://twitter.com/evolvepolitics/status/1149718185173798913 It would have taken the BBC an hour at tops to have checked this out. I would also remind people that, the very first person on the show is on tape talking about Jackie Walker in these words "She's only 5 ft 2, I could take her no problems", which makes their whole "Poor little me I'm so scared" stance look a tad dodgy?

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Given the topic (Labour's AS problem) your post had strong hints of Jewish conspiracy theories, which is an anti-Semitic trope as old as the hills.



What are such assumptions the mother of?



istm indicative your your bias in believing the BBC hasn't covered Islamphobia in Con PPP in depth.



It was whataboutery to make those claims on this thread due to the topic.
There is an off topic thread about Islamophobia in Con Party, but it's strangely quiet.
Happy to assist in joining up these thoughts.



fwiw I disagree. If you are half the Labour activist you present yourself as here how could you not be involved?

Thank you for further proving my point made above! I mentioned Israel being one country in a "Western" industrial-military complex alliance which also includes UK, USA, Japan and most of the EU and NATO. International big pharma, arms companies, big tech, banking, stock markets, oil... the whole "western" oligarchy over the globe.

There is "a conspiracy" amongst generally right wing "big business and military PLC international" to maintain the oligarchy of "The West" of course! The interconnected stock exchanges, NATO, the EU, international treaties and no doubt all sorts of grubby back room dealings are all part of this, but You read into this a Jewish conspiracy theory all on your own! It was indeed my point that it's so easy to read an AS trope into anything said about Israel if you want to see it and that this is what's now happening and being used to harm Labours election chances.

 

[Cav]

Have you read the AUP, Jez?

Did not know you were a mod......Oh! you are not.

 

[Woodface]

I find it utterly hilarious that any of these 'Western powers' are in any way cowering in fear of a Corbyn govt. What do they think he will do? He can barely make any decisions, how would he ever get round to intervening in the middle east? The perceived power of Corbyn from his supporters makes me wet myself from laughter. The compounded conflation of various 'conspiracies' can add up to clear AS but if people cannot see that it is because they choose not to. The world is complicated, there are no easy solutions, every decision has unintended consequences; I cannot see 'Corbyn world' as being one of milk & honey.

 

[Still]

Thank you for further proving my point made above!

In your dreams!

I mentioned Israel being one country in a "Western" industrial-military complex alliance which also includes UK, USA, Japan and most of the EU and NATO. International big pharma, arms companies, big tech, banking, stock markets, oil... the whole "western" oligarchy over the globe.

Which is a bit fruity.

There is "a conspiracy" amongst generally right wing "big business and military PLC international" to maintain the oligarchy of "The West" of course! The interconnected stock exchanges, NATO, the EU, international treaties and no doubt all sorts of grubby back room dealings are all part of this ...

That's not a "a conspiracy".

... You read into this a Jewish conspiracy theory all on your own!

Your many blatantly anti-semitic posts I've seen on pfm pre swift moderation *might* have had an influence on me.

It was indeed my point that it's so easy to read an AS trope into anything said about Israel if you want to see it and that this is what's now happening and being used to harm Labours election chances.

Close, but no cigar.
It's not simply being used to harm - the nature of politics is adversaries try to leverage each others problems.

And it is harming Labour b/c anti-semitism bad. Ignorance bad. Many in tribe died.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

I find it utterly hilarious that any of these 'Western powers' are in any way cowering in fear of a Corbyn govt. What do they think he will do? He can barely make any decisions, how would he ever get round to intervening in the middle east? The perceived power of Corbyn from his supporters makes me wet myself from laughter. The compounded conflation of various 'conspiracies' can add up to clear AS but if people cannot see that it is because they choose not to. The world is complicated, there are no easy solutions, every decision has unintended consequences; I cannot see 'Corbyn world' as being one of milk & honey.

Precisely! That's why TPTB are crapping themselves at the idea of a Corbyn gov. Lets say Iran attacks Israel and another Israel-Arab war kicks off.... the UK is expected to come running as soon as it hears the USA's dog whistle and the last thing they want is for a Corbyn gov to refuse to join in the bombing of Iran/other ME countries or to refuse to allow USA planes to refuel in UK facilities etc!

 

[gavreid]

Just as I thought, nobody wants a serious debate. The populist centre prevails...

I find it utterly hilarious that any of these 'Western powers' are in any way cowering in fear of a Corbyn govt. What do they think he will do? He can barely make any decisions, how would he ever get round to intervening in the middle east? The perceived power of Corbyn from his supporters makes me wet myself from laughter. The compounded conflation of various 'conspiracies' can add up to clear AS but if people cannot see that it is because they choose not to. The world is complicated, there are no easy solutions, every decision has unintended consequences; I cannot see 'Corbyn world' as being one of milk & honey.

You bet your bottom dollar they are, hence the current noise

 

[Woodface]

Precisely! That's why TPTB are crapping themselves at the idea of a Corbyn gov. Lets say Iran attacks Israel and another Israel-Arab war kicks off.... the UK is expected to come running as soon as it hears the USA's dog whistle and the last thing they want is for a Corbyn gov to refuse to join in the bombing of Iran/other ME countries or to refuse to allow USA planes to refuel in UK facilities etc!

& doing nothing has consequences. Will the US stop dropping the bombs because Corbyn disapproves, will the middle east suddenly join hands?

 

[Woodface]

Just as I thought, nobody wants a serious debate. The populist centre prevails...


You bet your bottom dollar they are, hence the current noise

What circular logic, the centre ground is often where decisions are made. Quoting lines from 'the sun will come out' tomorrow is obviously serious debate. Corbyn has spent his entire life running away from power so what makes him so well equipped now. Unlike some I don't claim to have all the answers.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

& doing nothing has consequences. Will the US stop dropping the bombs because Corbyn disapproves, will the middle east suddenly join hands?

The point is we wouldn't be a a part of the slaughter of Iranians in order to satisfy Trumps ego and use "the Falklands effect" to get another term in power and that will do me!

Anyhow.... As is seems that anyone who does not love Israel and does not think that Corbyn eats Jewish babies is likely to have half their posts deleted and risk being banned from the thread altogether I digress for the time being

 

[Still]

Anyhow.... As is seems that anyone who does not love Israel and does not think that Corbyn eats Jewish babies is likely to have half their posts deleted and risk being banned from the thread altogether I digress for the time being

No doubt Palestinians, Jews and all the other oppressed peoples would offer solidarity if only they knew of your sacrifice.

Precisely! That's why TPTB are crapping themselves at the idea of a Corbyn gov.

Labour leadership are the only people crapping themselves re: JC's current election prospects.

 

[gavreid]

No doubt Palestinians, Jews and all the other oppressed peoples would offer solidarity if only they knew of your sacrifice.



Labour leadership are the only people crapping themselves re: JC's current election prospects.

Are you really saying the Jews in Israel are oppressed?

 

[Still]

Are you really saying the Jews in Israel are oppressed?

How could I possibly know the situation of every Jew in Israel? Do you?

 

[gavreid]

How could I possibly know the situation of every Jew in Israel? Do you?

You don't understand the meaning of oppression - the whole race isn't oppressed, full stop.

 

[Still]

You don't understand the meaning of oppression - the whole race isn't oppressed, full stop.

Who said the whole race was oppressed, champ?

 

[gavreid]

I'm logging out because this isn't based in reality

 

[Still]

I'm logging out because this isn't based in reality

Possibly too much reality.

 

[Woodface]

The point is we wouldn't be a a part of the slaughter of Iranians in order to satisfy Trumps ego and use "the Falklands effect" to get another term in power and that will do me!

Anyhow.... As is seems that anyone who does not love Israel and does not think that Corbyn eats Jewish babies is likely to have half their posts deleted and risk being banned from the thread altogether I digress for the time being

We could be part of the slaughter of Israeli citizens if Iran invade; not saying they would. Should we not have acted in the Falklands? I appreciate that it gave Maggie another term but it was still probably the right thing to do IMHO. You do appear to conflate Israel with the actions of Israeli govt; the two are separate. I love my country but profoundly despair at current govt & politics in general.