John Coltrane

[Emily Winkles]

Ascension

 

[Sich]

Second the Alice Coltrane recommendation.

 

[Take5]

Suggestions for an introduction to his catalogue please.

Please bare in mind my appreciation of jazz is somewhat of a newbie. I really like MD IASW and MKOB, some Roland Kirk stuff and soul/jazz.


Bloss

I would suggest starting of with stuff from the late 50s early 60s.
I feel the music then is more accessible than some of the later stuff. Blue Train and Giant steps were perhaps the pinnacle of this phase of his music.

I would also suggest "Crescent". I feel this is a kind of pivotal album for him. Moving away from the kind of Hard Bop, lots of Harmony, fast tempo vibe, into a more relaxed spiritual vibe. some beautiful stuff on that.

Ballads is also very nice.

I can never get with the stuff after this . It doesnt do it for me. But it does for others. But have a listen on you tube or whatever, before investing in some of this later stuff.

 

[lordsummit]

Coltrane had a way of pushing the boundaries that no-one else had. This is what makes him really interesting. In some ways he ended up ploughing the furrow that Ornette Coleman did. Early on he was a classic hard-bop merchant. The Prestige albums and the Atlantic ones are really approachable as is Blue Train and a Love Supreme. Ballads is just extra-ordinarily beautiful playing.

Beyond these his music takes on a more visceral sense. He started to move beyond normal harmony, but he played it very differently from say Coleman who created Free Jazz where everyone just did what they want, and it's a cacophony, a quite interesting one, but possibly something of a musical cul-de-sac.

Coltrane was always very modal, he realised that these scales have tonal centres, can be built into interesting patterns. You can take a diatonic chord like D major, contrast it with say the D Lydian mode, and the dissonances can be very apparent, but actually they have similar tonal centres. Further up the line, you can become more avant-garde, and throw out the harmonic elements much more, ending up with rhythm and melodic elements. Kula Se Mama is a brilliant example of this where you can hear just him and a drummer, it's not easy listening, but in some ways it shows his later thinking better than anything else.

Also essential is this box set:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004LR5JZO/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

Enjoy!

 

[kjb]

Second vote for Blue Train, but try and avoid the I assume still current RVG Edition as it is just wrong, the earlier 1987 Ron McMaster Blue Note is way better. Also be wary of pirates, of which there are many.

The Blue Note 75 vinyl kicks my three other editions into touch and is a good bridge from KoB.

 

[Take5]

Coltrane had a way of pushing the boundaries that no-one else had. This is what makes him really interesting. In some ways he ended up ploughing the furrow that Ornette Coleman did. Early on he was a classic hard-bop merchant. The Prestige albums and the Atlantic ones are really approachable as is Blue Train and a Love Supreme. Ballads is just extra-ordinarily beautiful playing.

Beyond these his music takes on a more visceral sense. He started to move beyond normal harmony, but he played it very differently from say Coleman who created Free Jazz where everyone just did what they want, and it's a cacophony, a quite interesting one, but possibly something of a musical cul-de-sac.

Coltrane was always very modal, he realised that these scales have tonal centres, can be built into interesting patterns. You can take a diatonic chord like D major, contrast it with say the D Lydian mode, and the dissonances can be very apparent, but actually they have similar tonal centres. Further up the line, you can become more avant-garde, and throw out the harmonic elements much more, ending up with rhythm and melodic elements. Kula Se Mama is a brilliant example of this where you can hear just him and a drummer, it's not easy listening, but in some ways it shows his later thinking better than anything else.

Also essential is this box set:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004LR5JZO/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

Enjoy!

Some good points in this post, but a few points in this following part that I dont agree with.

"Coltrane was always very modal, he realised that these scales have tonal centres, can be built into interesting patterns. You can take a diatonic chord like D major, contrast it with say the D Lydian mode, and the dissonances can be very apparent, but actually they have similar tonal centres."

Yes, Coltrane did move in to modal music, but this was later.
It certainly wasnt "always"

In fact many would say that his music up to and including GIANT STEPS was
harmonicallly as difficult as jazz had see up to that point. Pretty much the complete opposite of modal music .

playing the correct notes over complex harmony was Coltranes thing at this point. No one chord/scale/mode for him in his Giant Steps period.

The music was all about the harmonic complexity, and negotiating your way through it, with "correct" notes .

So much so that it became pretty much a mechanical exercise to him. for example, his solos on the tracks Giant Steps and Countdown were VERY pattern orientated. in particular he played mainly a 1,2,3, 5 pattern of each chord.Or a 1,3,5,3 pattern
it was very much pre planned. The only improvising was when he made a mistake. He improvised until he got back on track with the pre- determined patterns.
( later solos over these changes were less so )

The theory or harmonic formula that he came up with basically was a way to make simple harmonic chord structure more complex. it was a "groundbreaker" and was widely copied.
It is still know as " Coltrane Changes" .... ( google it )

D major and D Lydian have identical tonal centres. they are in effect both D major. the only difference is a G sharp/sharp 4, in the Lydian version. Some would even say that this sound is a less dissonant sound than the G natural version in D major.

His dissonance did not come from that. It came from the superimposition of
alternative scales over a particular harmony.
eg he played Ab melodic minor over G dominant..... Nice !!!!
he also like to use the diminished scale to the same effect.

Listen to him playing modally in these early days. Try Kind of Blue. regarded by many as the first modal jazz recording.
take the track SO WHAT.
first listen to miles davis solo. He plays pretty much only in the mode he is in at any time. a great solo. It works. Harmonically very simply

then try Coltranes solo. He plays almost every note known to man. why... because this was the way he was playing then.
So we have lots of notes "out" of the mode. He likes dissonance and going out of key and back again.
It still works and I love it. Its kind of spooky and mysterious.
But it is a different way totally to playing modal music than Miles had, for example.

Later on, he did play increasingly in a more simple harmonically style. his music became more spirtual. He used the idea of Pentatonic scales more, and explored the possibilities of that.

A genius, whose music Ive got into more in the last couple of years. Still not sure if the late stuff will ever be for me. We will see.

 

[Tony L]

There was a great quote from the Miles Davis period when Coltrane had stretched a solo too far, something along the lines of:

Coltrane: "Sorry about that, I never know how to stop".

Davis: "Try taking the f***ing thing out of your mouth!".

 

[lordsummit]

Take5 you explain the patterns far better than I can. I do though think he used modes far more than he used the diatonic scales. The combination of experimenting with scales, rhythm and pattern is what makes home so exciting.

 

[kjb]

Take5 you explain the patterns far better than I can. I do though think he used modes far more than he used the diatonic scales. The combination of experimenting with scales, rhythm and pattern is what makes home so exciting.

There's an interview with Lee Konitz in a back issue of The Wire where he disses Coltrane for practicing on stage not performing, Konitz thought jazz should be about improvising to explore a melody and that Coltrane focused on endless repetition of scales at the expense of tunes.

I prefer Coltrane nonetheless

( That's a paraphrase of Konitz; can find the exact quote)


Kevin

 

[blossomchris]

I am doing a Tricky with this, struggling.
Maybe not in the right mood.

Bloss

 

[Natara]

Your not alone!

I am doing a Tricky with this, struggling.
Maybe not in the right mood.

Bloss

 

[lennyw]

Blimey! Did you know what to expect? I bought 'Live in Seattle', recorded around the same time, when I was sixteen. I ordered it as a US import, pretty pricey in 1971, after reading Richard Williams' ecstatic review in Melody Maker. It frightened the living daylights out of me! It still lurks in the back of a cupboard, like a scary monster.

A vote for 'The Complete Africa/Brass.' Anyone who doesn't love 'Song of the Underground Railroad' is beyond hope.

I can't quite remember whether I'd already heard the CD or whether I just picked it up on spec. I'd heard the Elvin Jones Jazz Machine a few weeks before, which changed my life (I'd been recommended lots of easy going jazz before which had never moved me), so I guess I just picked it up from the shelf.

Love Live at Seattle, though it's worth trying to get the complete CD version which has a couple of extra tracks, including one which iirc has a 10 min bass solo/duo shared by Jimmy Garrison and Donald Garrett.

Admittedly I was 22 or so when I got it -- at 16 I wouldn't have known how to react!

 

[TomF]

It was when I first listened to Giant Steps in 2000/2001 that jazz finally made sense to me. It was my way in.

Follow Tony's advice. Failing that, try Giant Steps.

 

[paulfromcamden]

I would also suggest "Crescent". I feel this is a kind of pivotal album for him. Moving away from the kind of Hard Bop, lots of Harmony, fast tempo vibe, into a more relaxed spiritual vibe. some beautiful stuff on that.

That's a great suggestion. One of his albums I came to later but a firm favourite.

 

[Engels]

Start with the record he made with Duke Ellington. Then as others have said "Blue Train" (or "Soultrane" which he preferred)

Then if you "get" "A Love Supreme" you can go exploring!

 

[Tony L]

If starting to explore A Love Supreme do have the words to 'Psalm' handy as he very obviously gets his sax to sing them.

 

[trick cyclist]

Second vote for Blue Train, but try and avoid the I assume still current RVG Edition as it is just wrong, the earlier 1987 Ron McMaster Blue Note is way better. Also be wary of pirates, of which there are many.

I'm also taking small steps into jazz, after years of rock, folk and classical. I bought the NOT compilation, which has Blue Train/Traneing In/Dakar across two CDs, and there is very little production info apart from being a 2010 digital remaster by Glenn Gretlund? It's this one from Amazon, where there is a little more info, but not much. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001PA7P20/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Tony, I take it that this may not be an optimum version for sound quality, and if so, what should one be looking for?

Thanks to OP for starting this one, as I too do not really know where to go.

 

[Stunsworth]

I'm also taking small steps into jazz, after years of rock, folk and classical. I bought the NOT compilation, which has Blue Train/Traneing In/Dakar across two CDs, and there is very little production info apart from being a 2010 digital remaster by Glenn Gretlund? It's this one from Amazon, where there is a little more info, but not much. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001PA7P20/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Tony, I take it that this may not be an optimum version for sound quality, and if so, what should one be looking for?

Thanks to OP for starting this one, as I too do not really know where to go.

The label is Not Now Music, so I expect it's a pirate version.

For anyone interested in vinyl the DeAgostini reissue is still available for £9.99...

https://shop.deagostini.co.uk/jazz-at-33-rpm-issue-02.html

 

[canyelles]

Best to think of Coltrane in three stages IMO, they are neatly defined by label:

a) Prestige. Very accessible tonal stuff, just classic hard bop really. Just buy them all in this nice budget All His Prestige Albums box. It is a bargain.

b) Atlantic. He's just starting to show signs of stretching out a bit, this work only covers a couple of sessions, but they were so productive they resulted in about seven or eight albums once out-takes etc were factired in. Buy the lot in this Heavyweight Champion box. Again it is such a bargain it is wrong not to. You will soon realise the correct number of Coltrane albums to own is all of them.

c) Impulse. This is where things start to get very interesting and maybe alienating/challenging later on. It is also a far harder period to recommend from as there isn't a nice box of the whole lot. To start off with I'd recommend
Ballads, Crescent and A Love Supreme. After that you should know where to go next (buy them all!) but I'd probably go with Live At The Village Vanguard first.

If you like jazz you will like Coltrane, he is one of the giants for damn good reason, hence my recommendation to dive right in rather than just a few bits that you will likely have to replace later as the boxes are just so much better value. Everything I've recommended is pretty tonal and accessible, i.e. I've not gone for anything after ALS which is where he really took off on the atonal free spuritual stuff that a lot of people (including myself early on) really struggle with. In many ways it is best to approach it via the historical timeline and follow his career from the start and kind of grow with him.

I am old enough (just about, I was 14) and lucky enough to have seen John Coltrane live on stage.

I have been listening to him since 1961 and heard most of the Atlantics and all of the Impulses as they were issued.

I agree with everything Tony has written.

 

[Tantris]

Some good points in this post, but a few points in this following part that I dont agree with.

"Coltrane was always very modal, he realised that these scales have tonal centres, can be built into interesting patterns. You can take a diatonic chord like D major, contrast it with say the D Lydian mode, and the dissonances can be very apparent, but actually they have similar tonal centres."

Yes, Coltrane did move in to modal music, but this was later.
It certainly wasnt "always"

In fact many would say that his music up to and including GIANT STEPS was
harmonicallly as difficult as jazz had see up to that point. Pretty much the complete opposite of modal music .

playing the correct notes over complex harmony was Coltranes thing at this point. No one chord/scale/mode for him in his Giant Steps period.

The music was all about the harmonic complexity, and negotiating your way through it, with "correct" notes .

So much so that it became pretty much a mechanical exercise to him. for example, his solos on the tracks Giant Steps and Countdown were VERY pattern orientated. in particular he played mainly a 1,2,3, 5 pattern of each chord.Or a 1,3,5,3 pattern
it was very much pre planned. The only improvising was when he made a mistake. He improvised until he got back on track with the pre- determined patterns.
( later solos over these changes were less so )

The theory or harmonic formula that he came up with basically was a way to make simple harmonic chord structure more complex. it was a "groundbreaker" and was widely copied.
It is still know as " Coltrane Changes" .... ( google it )

D major and D Lydian have identical tonal centres. they are in effect both D major. the only difference is a G sharp/sharp 4, in the Lydian version. Some would even say that this sound is a less dissonant sound than the G natural version in D major.

His dissonance did not come from that. It came from the superimposition of
alternative scales over a particular harmony.
eg he played Ab melodic minor over G dominant..... Nice !!!!
he also like to use the diminished scale to the same effect.

Listen to him playing modally in these early days. Try Kind of Blue. regarded by many as the first modal jazz recording.
take the track SO WHAT.
first listen to miles davis solo. He plays pretty much only in the mode he is in at any time. a great solo. It works. Harmonically very simply

then try Coltranes solo. He plays almost every note known to man. why... because this was the way he was playing then.
So we have lots of notes "out" of the mode. He likes dissonance and going out of key and back again.
It still works and I love it. Its kind of spooky and mysterious.
But it is a different way totally to playing modal music than Miles had, for example.

Later on, he did play increasingly in a more simple harmonically style. his music became more spirtual. He used the idea of Pentatonic scales more, and explored the possibilities of that.

A genius, whose music Ive got into more in the last couple of years. Still not sure if the late stuff will ever be for me. We will see.

A really interesting and insightful analysis.

I'd like to know your take on one of the later (posthumous) releases - First Meditations (for quartet), and particularly Coltrane's solo and use of multiphonics on Consequences. I keep returning to this album, and Interstellar Space, because my impression is that this is where Coltrane was most successful in forging a new language. On other work around this time, such as the Seattle live album, I sometimes get the sense of a dead end being reached. Another album worth mentioning is Cosmic Music which is often overlooked but which continues to work the language of Interstellar Space very successfully.