First off, "Avete...?" is plural and so is neither "Tu" nor "Lei."
Yes, it is. According to my notes it is the conjugation for "voi" which is the plural of the familiar "tu".
However, in southern Italy it is sometimes used as a respectful form of address towards a single person.
Worth knowing, thanks.
But I think you can forget about the "Voi" to all intents and purposes, unless of course you are addressing more than one person, in your arancia example (that actually sounds odd, did you mean a "spremuta d'arancia" or "una arancia" or "arance" or "aranci," the last two both plural for orange.
I meant "una arancia" or "aranci" that I was buying in corner shops and greengrocers 1 or 2 at a time. Only once did someone misunderstand and offer me Fanta. "Non, non, *una* arancia..."
Strangers of the same age and circumstances will often use the "Tu" if they feel matey.
This fits, rather like the French.
But these days, particularly since your interlocutor will realise you are a foreigner, nobody is lightly to be offended by "Tu." But will be impressed if you construct a sentence using "Lei."
I'll do my best. It's easy enough though, if you want to use "lei" it's just a case of finding the 3rd person singular conjugation of the verb (mutters parlo-parli-parla under his breath) and bingo, that's you.
The thing I can't stack up is why in a shops it's "avete XYZ?" which is like saying "hi, have y'all got XYZ?" when my French knowledge would lead me to use "lei" which, correct me if I'm wrong, would come out as "ha XYZ?" and you never hear this.
The particular thing about "Lei," is that it actually introduces distance in grammatical terms. So a sentence using "Lei" is built as if one is talking about some third party rather than directly to the person you are actually talking to. This is different from French, where the person simply becomes plural.
So, "Tu sei bello," you are beautiful, becomes "Lei e' bello," or "You/she IS beautiful." Because "Lei" also happens to means she or her.
It is a bit like if in English you address someone as "Your honour" or "your eminence." "Will Your Eminence have a cup of tea?"
That's interesting. It's like the French use of "on", this being close to "one" as in "I think if one lives in a hot country then it's only reasonable to to drink tea in the aft6ernoon" and they often use it as a vague "we" or "they" in the same way that you will hear at work "I think that we should be doing XYZ" or "I think they should be doing XYZ", the clear implication being that the speaker is being totally nonspecific about who exactly WILL be doing it but you know bloody well that it's not going to be them.
If indeed these formal/informal addresses are still widely practised in Italy and France (and maybe Spain, Portugal and Romania, having Latin derived languages), I salute them.
It very much is, more so in France in my experience.
Hat off to you, Steve 67 and keep up the progress.
Thanks! Fun so far.
I lived/worked in Milan for six months and loved it but shamefully failed to pick up more than a smattering of Italian.
In my defence, working in IT the correct response to 98% of enquiries was apparently a regretful shrug and "mi dispiace non è possibile..."
Did you not have to learn the Italian for "have you tried turning it off and then on again?"
(No idea, I can do this in French, it involves "extinguishing" and "relighting" the machine, which I especially like, but not in Italian.)
Taxi drivers, shop assistants, receptionists, bank clerks, restaurant waiters, policemen, formal work contacts, the plumber or house painter, the dentist or doctor, will invariably address you as Lei and expect the same.
That's the thing, I didn't get this. Other than the pointed "Grazie a *lei*" response in shops and bars and the hotel reception formalities I didn't hear much "lei" at all.
Among young people it is usual to start straight from Tu.
This fits.
You have to sort of play it by ear, sometimes.
For sure.
Bear in mind, too, that most Italians do not speak "good" Italian, just as most Brits do not use "good" English. So is you are studying the language aim for the best possible quality of classic Italian, don't try to imitate jargon, slang, regional differences or just the plain ignorance of correct Italian among the people you run into. If you want to be "matey" just smile a lot as you masterfully deliver a perfectly constructed sentence chock full of subjunctives and conditionals.
Steady on, I'm only just getting into past imperfect.
Friends who live in France tell me the whole tu versus vou thing is still observed more rigidly there than the equivalent in Italy and Spain. Is this true I wonder?
Yes it is on the basis of my recent experience. That's precisely why I started this thread.
As a former language teacher, I've often wondered if Europeans are as incorrect in their writing and orally as is widespread here.
Oh god yes, in French in my first hand experience and second hand via fluent Spanish speakers who say the Spanish are incredibly sloppy and a fluent speaker can sit and listen and say "Oh, dropped the subjunctive there and decided to go with the present indicative instead, sloppy."
I’ve lived in Italy for the last decade or more, it’s pretty much as PaulMB said. “Tu” is fine with most younger people most of the time. The older the person, the more formal the context, the more appropriate “Lei” is, and it’s particularly sensible to address ladies of shall we say a certain age as “lei”, they will be impressed.
Makes sense.
Also note that if someone in a formal context,a policeman or official, addresses you as “tu” they are probably being rude in a snide way.
Very much so in France, you can see in films that it often generates the angry response of "Toi? Toi? C'est quoi, mon prenom?" I once had cause to say something similar to this in France to a barman who I thought was being excessively matey and "tutoi" ing me in a rather excessively chummy and I felt patronisiong way. I have enough French to pick this up, but not Italian.
Voi is confusing for English people, it’s like “youse” in Scotland, or “y’all” in America, a plural.
I get this, I worked it out over the last couple of weeks in italy and it makes sense. I do like the analogy of "youse or "Y'all" though, I'll remember that.
Confused by the fact that in some forms of historic Italian, and often in opera, “voi” is also the respectful singular “you”.
Paul MB said this, it's interesting.
You think this is confusing. You wait till you get to the pronouns.
It can't be worse than French. I *STILL* haven't got a definitive understanding of the "il" vs "lui" thing even with what I consider to be a mastery of the language and I am still utterly vague as to how to carry on when the object pronoun is a woman.