Is there any point in a valve DAC

[earlofsodbury]

Hard evidence??? How about all the tech advice I give your members everyday? how about my having been an EE and designer with well known companies?? How about the Arkless 640P and Arkless GTi (one of the very few transimpedance stages around) which you've seen all the rave reviews on?? How about my transconductance phono stage prototype, which several fishies heard, some borrowed, and was demoed at a major bake off at MCRU premises (and at v1 status, not even any attempt at "voicing" etc) and all who heard it have said it is as good as the legendary Paradise? How about the valve hybrid MC stage that a few heard some time ago? How about the several other prototype amps I've told people about and sometimes posted pics of? (some of which have been heard by visitors here). How about the design for a valve pre I put in your DIY section and a few built? How about the class A 16W monoblocks playing as I type this?

For any class of analogue equipment from head amps to headphone amps, phono stages, power amps, power supplies etc etc I have not just one but many designs I have built prototypes of and which I can prove to be more than vapour ware to anyone who cares to visit Arkless Towers. A few who have visited can verify this.

I don't need to have my work mass produced and in dealers or What Hi Fi? One working sample is all that is needed as proof of concept and ability of designer. Notice I make zero claims to be any good as a businessman and entrepreneur, which I admit to being really crap at!

I could start making gear for sale, in very small quantities, which would have to be "high end ish" (prob over £2k) due to being totally hand made, down to me with a drill press drilling all the holes for the phono sockets etc etc, and made from parts bought as one or ten off from RS etc at 10 X the price a big company pays for them.
The only way to get it LOOKING like it's worth £2K is to pay outside contractors silly money to have the casework made to those sort of standards... I don't have that sort of money and TBH really don't care about the aesthetics of gear.

So what would likely happen if I make a £2700 hybrid phono stage and show it on your site with invitations for people to try it?? Probably loads of people would want to try it just to see if the loudmouths amp is as good as he claims... it would (hopefully!) get rave reviews... and then no one would buy one. People would be mainly diplomatic and say stuff like they have other units to try, or they were hoping for remote control of loading (!?). Some would be more honest and say it just doesn't have the fit and finish of aesthetics they expect at that price...
For most the simple facts would be that they may risk £450 on an Arkless GTi but no way will they spend £2700 on a phono stage knowing they are the first person to buy one, one that is not available in dealers or present at shows etc and they may have great difficulty selling on without huge loss (though I will say that when Arkless GTi's etc appear in the classifieds they sell instantly at a very good price). I'd end up either keeping it or selling it on for maybe £200 more than what it cost me for the parts and after spending 2 months building it.

The wining, dining and bribing of reviewers and dealers, paying for and getting to hi fi shows, giving the fake smile, the "oh I can see sir is a man of taste from the moment I saw you coming" bit, the rising of finance etc etc is all stuff that has nothing to do with electronic engineering, I'm really shite at, I have less than zero interest in, and TBH I'm simply not prepared to do... and probably no one would buy my stuff unless I am seen to "play the game" in that way.

How d'you mean?

 

[Dowser]

NOBODY knows what makes an amp sound great! If we did then all amps would be made to the "correct recipe" and sound perfect in every way. I have tried and used all the types of PSU you name many times but not tried the types one after another on an identical amp because it is not something that makes a difference and yes you are imagining it. On only one occasion have I heard an SET sound anything other than a bag of shite and that was a Longdog Audio one. I've heard the Ongaku and a couple of cheaper AN ones and I'd take a NAD 3020 over them all day long.

i give up Jez - It’s not about what you know, it’s about how you present what you know - being an obnoxious bastard, and being proud of it, just doesn’t work. Above response is indicative - less abuse than usual, but still complete denial - try a full wave PSU on a Naim pre-amp compared to one sharing a transformer, then tell me I’m wrong. I, and actually many others, have done it already. For The SET stuff, an IMHO would help a lot…but of course you’re not very humble But you must realise many people invest in this “bag of shite” tech..why? Good luck

 

[Hooch500]

yer know yer couldn't make it up.... I get all sorts of abuse and "if you're so good why aren't you a well known manufacturer"... I give it , OK here's why I don't make much stuff....and it's called whining and wheres that violin and I get more abuse for explaining! (not just from you).

just poured my first pint of the evening so hopefully that counts as the wining

Why not ? I’ve had a few, blasted a bit of music and wondered why a miss a pair of big old Tannoy’s, or a pair of Audio Innovations monoblocs with 15 watts of candle power.

There’s the rub - the objectivist in me says move on. But the wheel has not yet been re-invented. I think i’m a hedonistic lost soul that wants to be seduced and immersed in music not impressed or assaulted by it.

 

[GT]

NOBODY knows what makes an amp sound great!

Yes they do...

 

[the caretaker]

yer know yer couldn't make it up.... I get all sorts of abuse and "if you're so good why aren't you a well known manufacturer"... I give it , OK here's why I don't make much stuff....and it's called whining and wheres that violin and I get more abuse for explaining! (not just from you).

just poured my first pint of the evening so hopefully that counts as the wining

Pint of wine..should do the trick!

 

[Arkless Electronics]

i give up Jez - It’s not about what you know, it’s about how you present what you know - being an obnoxious bastard, and being proud of it, just doesn’t work. Above response is indicative - less abuse than usual, but still complete denial - try a full wave PSU on a Naim pre-amp compared to one sharing a transformer, then tell me I’m wrong. I, and actually many others, have done it already. For The SET stuff, an IMHO would help a lot…but of course you’re not very humble But you must realise many people invest in this “bag of shite” tech..why? Good luck

And I ain't gonna change What yer see is what yer get. FWIW I think humility is about the stupidest human trait I know of. Spend decades getting really good at something then go around FALSELY claiming to be crap at it.... yeah that makes sense... but then I by and large don't "get" most people We'd prob get on if we had a pint together... and steered clear of hi fi!

Edit: Oh and apparently I often come across as an obnoxious bastard even when I thought I was being nice....and had no idea I was coming across as obnoxious.... I've a lifetimes experience of this. so I may as well be good at it and be proud of it

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Yes they do...

Oh no they don't

 

[RossB]

NOBODY knows what makes an amp sound great!

And yet you are so certain that cables don't make a difference and that valves cannot sound good.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

And yet you are so certain that cables don't make a difference and that valves cannot sound good.

Cables don't make a difference beyond things like resistance and inductance in excessively thin and long speaker cable. I design valve amps so I don't know where you get that from! What I'm saying is that it is foo based con merchandising to claim "we've added a valve to this so it MUST be better and is worth loads more"

 

[DimitryZ]

I, for one, do appreciate free technical advice we get from Jez.

Just don't argue with him, and you will be all set.

 

[the caretaker]

Cables don't make a difference beyond things like resistance and inductance in excessively thin and long speaker cable. I design valve amps so I don't know where you get that from! What I'm saying is that it is foo based con merchandising to claim "we've added a valve to this so it MUST be better and is worth loads more"

I would say jez, the sound of the piano on a valve amp is quite beguiling..it has never affected me in the same way on a solid state amplifier..

 

[DimitryZ]

I would say jez, the sound of the piano on a valve amp is quite beguiling..it has never affected me in the same way on a solid state amplifier..

People are different.

My high power SS mono amps reproduce real piano's dynamic range far better than valves, at least on my speakers.

My SS system is getting much more use than my previous $25K valve kit.

 

[the caretaker]

People are different.

My high power SS mono amps reproduce real piano's dynamic range far better than valves, at least on my speakers.

My SS system is getting much more use than my previous $25K valve kit.

I use solid state amps myself but there is a warm and honeyed sound valves produce which is very nice..esp if you just want to relax after a hard day and not analyse your hifi? Dynamic range isn't the same as beguiling..beguiling is a state of mind in my opinion and dynamic range is very nice when your in the analytical zone with your hifi..but sometimes it's just nice not to bothered with hearing every last gobbit of detail? And just let the music wash over you in a gentle way..in this regard I don't think valves can be beat..

 

[RichardAusten]

It's difficult to understand, why you have convinced yourself that "me and my friends" would choose SET over SS.

My experience has been quite the opposite - tube equipment of various designs and powers, ending with $15K 300B Monos. Then a switch to a modest $3K Emotiva amplification chain and realizing that at least on ET8Bs they sounded better.

And, btw, there has been many very embarrassing events in the realm of blind tasting food and wine - an equivalent of fast-food burger winning over the fancy one.

First I hate most 300B amplifiers. Second, it needs a highly sensitive speaker. I don't know the speaker you are referencing. I do know that an owner on the Steve Hoffman forum owns the best Emotiva amplifiers and on his Altecs he greatly prefers the ANKits EL34 and a 3.9 watt Tori and a Line Magnetic tube amp. So why do you feel your preference is superior to his?

Most audio disagreements are because there is no direct shared experience - you are not listening in the same room with the same speakers, the same music, at the same volume. It is entirely possible that if I sat beside you and listened to the Emotiva amp on those speakers I would like it more than the $15k monoblocks. I am an Audio Note owner and at an Audio Show several years back - with their 300B Meishu - it was tubby, boomy and generally pretty bad. It wouldn't make my top 20.

Now let's say that was my very first experience with the brand. All the internet hype and this boomy mess is what I hear. Huh? That's SET? WTF was that!

This isn't like comparing cars - We each drive 6 family cars in the Toyota Camry class at US prices (They are much higher in the UK due to Import so the value proposition is lower) so 6 cars in the $35k US range (Camry, Accord, Subaru Legacy, etc) - roads are similar - we can be across the world and still make comparisons and equal observations - the Accord rides lower and feels more sporty - the Camry has less road noise that sort of thing.

In audio, this doesn't happen. I am not anti-SS or anti-Class D - I recently bought Class D monoblocks from Wyred4Sound after all. I HATED the early Bel Canto class D amps from 20 years back - they sounded awful - I didn't then judge ALL class D amplifiers on that experience or that brand or that model.

Tube amplifiers have a huge variance in sound - even from one manufacturer. Peter Qvortrup for example said to me that his three favourite sounding SET tube amps are 211, 45 and 2a3 and in a distant 4th place the 300B! Yet his number one selling amplifier is the 300B.

I preferred the Puraudio One integrated amplifier to the Audio Note Meishu (both at the same price). The Puraudio One is a Dual Mono SS amplifier designed by the engineers from the SS maker Plinius.

I would suggest sitting down with a few different tube amplifiers - some sound more SS (like anything using KT tubes like KT88, KT90, KT120). These are likely to be less distinguishable in a blind level matched test from a SS amp. Of course, if you can't tell the difference then why put up with the hassle of tubes - so I am not a big fan of these tube amps for this very reason. EL 34 can sound like mush all the way to sounding like a KT88.

300B I find to sound somewhat weak-willed and soft and lack strong transients. They can sound pretty depending on what you listen to but to me not all music is supposed to sound pretty - especially if you like AC/DC or Motley Crue. For this, I'll take a lot of SS amps.

So i guess what I am saying is that I would never begrudge anyone who prefers SS amps - especially with given context. Still, on most boards what I discover is that people have auditioned dozens or hundreds of SS amps for 30 years or more and then they audition 3 tube amps in less ideal circumstances - (Audio Shows - eesh) and then it's all tube amps everywhere suck.

 

[DimitryZ]

I use solid state amps myself but there is a warm and honeyed sound valves produce which is very nice..esp if you just want to relax after a hard day and not analyse your hifi? Dynamic range isn't the same as beguiling..beguiling is a state of mind in my opinion and dynamic range is very nice when your in the analytical zone with your hifi..but sometimes it's just nice not to bothered with hearing every last gobbit of detail? And just let the music wash over you in a gentle way..in this regard I don't think valves can be beat..

If you want all your music to sound the same, pleasant way, absolutely.

If you want to hear what is actually on your CDs and LPs... not so much.

 

[RichardAusten]

Much as I dislike QAnon and their ilk, I do have to own up to having an Aesthetix Pandora DAC with a valve output stage. It replaced quite a nice SimAudio Moon DAC that saw off a Naim NDS. No idea how any of them measured as I do not pretend to understand electronics.

I love your avatar - one of my all-time favourite comedies. Abe-Normal I smile everytime I think of Marty.

 

[the caretaker]

If you want all your music to sound the same, pleasant way, absolutely.

If you want to hear what is actually on your CDs and LPs... not so much.

Agreed...but sometimes it's nice not to analyse the sound..like yourself I listen carefully..maybe too carefully? I can hear the difference in the sound from my laptop compared to my tablet with both going through the same dac...surely the signal is the same to the dac? Guess it isn't? My chrome book sounds different as well...most strange..

 

[DimitryZ]

So i guess what I am saying is that I would never begrudge anyone who prefers SS amps - especially with given context. Still, on most boards what I discover is that people have auditioned dozens or hundreds of SS amps for 30 years or more and then they audition 3 tube amps in less ideal circumstances - (Audio Shows - eesh) and then it's all tube amps everywhere suck.

So your most convincing argument is that "on most boards" you "discovered" that most audiophiles lack experience with tube amps.

How does this possibly relate to my post that I was a tube audiophile for 20 years?

 

[DimitryZ]

Agreed...but sometimes it's nice not to analyse the sound..like yourself I listen carefully..maybe too carefully? I can hear the difference in the sound from my laptop compared to my tablet with both going through the same dac...surely the signal is the same to the dac? Guess it isn't? My chrome book sounds different as well...most strange..

Some DACs offer "sound colors" with several valve options. They replicate the distortion signature of classic valve circuits.

 

[canonman]

I've heard the Ongaku and a couple of cheaper AN ones and I'd take a NAD 3020 over them all day long.

Great! I have 2 NAD 3020 for sale, will put in classifieds at outrageous prices