maxflinn
pfm Member
And transportsAhem.... I'll just say "mains leads" Steven....
Is The Running In Of Electronics A Myth?
- Thread starter maxflinn
- Start date
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
Do you have pointy ears?
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
While I have a Mdac modded just like Steven's I wasn't aware of it 'burning in' on return from John. It certainly sounds different stone cold to how it sounds after five minutes of being on, but that's all.
Which is considerably different to how it changed over the first week of initial ownership.
Max you can ignore the posts on the first pages by Martin, John, Alan, myself and others if you like, but it is an incontrovertible truth- some components, and as a result designs, do burn in. It's just a plain old measurable science fact.
If you doubt it the next time I build up another Paradise phonostage I will video the input offset meter swinging about at various times over the first 70 or so hours. Like a pendulum coming to rest over time the bias eventually levels out with absolutely no intervention from external sources whatsoever.
I can well see Keith's point about it being funny how things always burn in to be better than worse. However that's just the nature of electronics. They either reach a steady state and continue on in this fashion until such time in the distant future as they slip gracefully out of spec. Or they explode in your face and kill you. There's little in between. it's just a shame that there's so much shit talked about burn in, that so many people have no grasp of what might lie underneath, and that many dealers are just great big f-in liars who will say anything and use any trap to make a sale to the unsuspecting and gullible.
Which is considerably different to how it changed over the first week of initial ownership.
Max you can ignore the posts on the first pages by Martin, John, Alan, myself and others if you like, but it is an incontrovertible truth- some components, and as a result designs, do burn in. It's just a plain old measurable science fact.
If you doubt it the next time I build up another Paradise phonostage I will video the input offset meter swinging about at various times over the first 70 or so hours. Like a pendulum coming to rest over time the bias eventually levels out with absolutely no intervention from external sources whatsoever.
I can well see Keith's point about it being funny how things always burn in to be better than worse. However that's just the nature of electronics. They either reach a steady state and continue on in this fashion until such time in the distant future as they slip gracefully out of spec. Or they explode in your face and kill you. There's little in between. it's just a shame that there's so much shit talked about burn in, that so many people have no grasp of what might lie underneath, and that many dealers are just great big f-in liars who will say anything and use any trap to make a sale to the unsuspecting and gullible.
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
I don't think anyone would contest that electro mechanical devices might change over time.
Keith.
Keith.
mjroe
pfm Member
Being an electronics engineer by trade I am always wary of all the snake oil that seems to surround the hifi industry. I'm aware of the theory and that certain components do not need to 'warm up', however I have noticed several things:
I find it hard to believe that I am simply making all these things up, I've done loads of live and studio mixing in the past and you have to develop critical listening skills for that. I think the problem is that human ears are so good and the changes are so subtle. Legend has it that Rupert Neve once detected that the audio transformers were wired the wrong way simply by listening to the mixing console they were installed in... no one else knew why it wasn't sounding 'quite' right.
- I prefer the sound when I leave my Naim kit on 24/7 - not sure if this is psychological as it is impossible to A/B
- My Headline 2 definitely sounds better after being left powered for a couple of years - I really didn't like the sound when I first got it, but it sounds much smoother now.
- Whenever I run a large PA rig that I own (4kW active) the tweeters always sound far too harsh & shouty when powered from cold. Things improve after letting the amps run for a bit and some music played through the system.
I find it hard to believe that I am simply making all these things up, I've done loads of live and studio mixing in the past and you have to develop critical listening skills for that. I think the problem is that human ears are so good and the changes are so subtle. Legend has it that Rupert Neve once detected that the audio transformers were wired the wrong way simply by listening to the mixing console they were installed in... no one else knew why it wasn't sounding 'quite' right.
davidsrsb
pfm Member
Tweeter coils could easily be "sticking" (ferrofluid pooling and drying) and this then gets distributed and frees up when music is played - until next time.
While they are stuck on one edge you get a peaky frequency response and plenty of distortion
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
I'm sure it is; especially if we've 'invested' a lot of money in it and don't want to think we've made a mistake.
Paul Messenger's reviews often explicitly allow for habituation to different sound presentations; some other reviewers seem a bit too ready to ascribe improvements to 'burn-in', even for such unlikely candidates as cables.
Cav
pfm Member
If one thinks one can hear it, one can hear it. Objective measurement might show no difference but....cont p.194
This is, indeed, the acceptable face of burn-in.
What really sucks is the stories you hear of innocent punters being told that this whatever requires [fill-in your unrealistic number here] hours of burn-in; this number being sufficiently large to ensure no likelihood of the whatever being successfully returned under the Sale of Goods Act or related regulations.
And as for ‘burn-in’ of cables......
Cav
pfm Member
Precisely. Even with a system one has had for years - if one is not in the mood.
Ozi2
Veteran Member
I bought ProAc Response One SC which ex owner didn't played for five years. It took nine months for the speakers to open up and deliver smooth sound.
My ex Supernait from new after a month started to sound very very slow and eventually after six months opened up and transformed into speed beast.
My ex Supernait from new after a month started to sound very very slow and eventually after six months opened up and transformed into speed beast.
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Oz sorry to be pedantic but did you have another new Superwhatever to compare to your six month burned in unit?
Keith.
Keith.
Ozi2
Veteran Member
Keith, I know what you are trying to say, but answer is no and I didn't have a single sign to be sceptic. That was clear like night and day and my other friends confirmed the same.
But let me tell you another story. In ninetees my friend was national Naim, Arcam, Epos, Proac etc. distributor in my country. We spent probably hundreds of hours listen to new and demo units. We found that many demo units with 200-500 hours sounded much much better than new or units with couple of tens hours of their playing time.
I've been an audio reviewer for years and I understand pretty well why dealers says that burning in is a myth. I am fine with that, but don't accept that when I audition some gear for myself. This is my opinion which is based on my experience and nothing can't change that even if someone who don't believe in burning in ask a question on which I couldn't answer in an adequate way.
If you can feel the quake, you do not have to be a seismic specialist to be legit to open your mouth.
Oz
But let me tell you another story. In ninetees my friend was national Naim, Arcam, Epos, Proac etc. distributor in my country. We spent probably hundreds of hours listen to new and demo units. We found that many demo units with 200-500 hours sounded much much better than new or units with couple of tens hours of their playing time.
I've been an audio reviewer for years and I understand pretty well why dealers says that burning in is a myth. I am fine with that, but don't accept that when I audition some gear for myself. This is my opinion which is based on my experience and nothing can't change that even if someone who don't believe in burning in ask a question on which I couldn't answer in an adequate way.
If you can feel the quake, you do not have to be a seismic specialist to be legit to open your mouth.
Oz
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
I cornered the market in big Tannoys back when you couldn't give them away. Soon I will sell them all and donate the proceeds to pay off the National Debt!
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
How on earth do you make a correction for becoming inured to the sound of a box when trying at the same time to detect the aural effect of burn in? I'm a burn in sceptic, not quite a denier, but someone who believes that habituation/ Psychological accommodation is the dominant force.
BTW I'm in love with the pre-burned in sound. Is there a component I can buy that sounds eternally unburned in? I'm not sure, having very limited exposure to it, but I think n@im may have what I'm after?
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Joe when I began my career, a senior manager in the company said to me
"Dec, there are three kinds of people in the world, do you know who they are?"
"no, Arthur" says I.
"the first two kinds are those who make things happen and those who watch things happen... but do you know what the third type is?"
"no" says I
"Dec " he says, "those are the people who have things happen to them."
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
My aural memory is, like my main memory, very short, so the lapse of a few days tends to render null any conclusions I may draw about the burnt-in-ness of hifi equipment.
Maybe some enterprising person could offer an 'un-burn' service that removes the effect of electricity flowing through cables and equipment*. Sort of how they removed the mileage from the car in Ferris Bueller's Day Off by running the engine in reverse.**
*if that's what happens. I'm light on technical knowledge.
** Maybe the effect could be achieved by playing music backwards through the equipment, though of course at the risk of summoning up The Beast.