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Is the Metropolitan Police institutionally corrupt?

Andrew C! said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65741824

Probably worthy of a separate thread. BBC link to the same release as @Ginger posted above. Now, this topic is something I do know a fair amount about, and it will be interesting to see what other contributors on here think to this decision.

(No sarcasm or irony, tho, as I was pulled up for that recently).
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Is this a further sign that the Police are veering more towards their role of tools of the state, and away from their duty to protect communities?
 
While on the face of it I feel it's a questionable precedent to set without other measures being put in place the article states:

"The Met's new plan has already been adopted by Humberside Police, who introduced the Right Care, Right Person (RCRP) scheme in 2020 to ensure mental health calls are dealt with by mental health professionals."

So my first question would be as to whether this had been successful or not and how that success is measured, i.e. are mental health cases getting better treatment from people better qualified or not as a result.

To be fair the police are being called in more and more to mental health cases because the care system in general is in such disarray through woeful underinvestment by YKW. They are now the first port of call where they shouldn't be as they are not qualified to deliver mental health care and in a lot of cases a professional is what is needed, but of course there aren't enough of them. I think before we go to town on the Met over this the bigger picture perhaps needs considering as this is down to the state of health care in the UK right now and that is 100% down to the government.
 
ks.234 said:
Is this a further sign that the Police are veering more towards their role of tools of the state, and away from their duty to protect communities?
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No. It is not the job of police to be a substitute for the NHS or social care when having to deal with a person suffering with an acute mental health crisis, if so apparent. Street triage very capably filled this gap(and continues to do so in Notts), by having a mental health nurse with an officer, to professionally assess capability (MCA) and symptoms in this regard. Officers are not properly equipped to assess in this regard - the nurse is, as is a S12 approved medic. By correctly assessing at incidents, you can clearly reduce inappropriate detentions under S136 MHA eg when a person might be faking MH issues (sadly, it does happen), or the genuine crisis that a service user may be in. I instigated and delivered MCA training on 2015, and officers and staff said it was a real eye-opener. Especially that the appropriately qualified professional is the right person to assess.

If a person is suspected of committing an offence, and MH symptoms are apparent, then a substantive assessment will be required by a so qualified nurse (initially), then a suitably qualified medic. If the medic or nurse is of the professional opinion the suspect is suffering such a crisis, then they can be so detained under S2/3 MHA for treatment. Very rarely happens. Officers in some cases used to bin a job before this assessment was complete, and then had to rescue evidence once the medic confirmed the suspect wasn’t so acute. I/we put that right, so there was more balance and victim focus, as well a service-user focus in individual cases.

In term of stats, they spoke for themselves. Before I left - 80% reduction in inappropriate detention under S136, massive increase in faster referrals for MH crisis care etc etc. But we got the recording right from the start ;)

tiggers said:
So my first question would be as to whether this had been successful or not and how that success is measured, i.e. are mental health cases getting better treatment from people better qualified or not as a result.
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See above. Apologies for the long response.

https://www.nottinghamshirehealthcare.nhs.uk/street-triage

https://www.england.nhs.uk/mental-health/case-studies/crisis-mental-health-case-studies/notts/

The last link should help those reading who like evidence.

My personal view is the above works very effectively, and continues to do so. To pull the plug completely, without control measures, risks harm to some of the most vulnerable members of society.
 
Andrew C! said:
No. It is not the job of police to be a substitute for the NHS or social care when having to deal with a person suffering with an acute mental health crisis, if so apparent.
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This has been a long time coming with more and more being put on the police service to be social workers, mental health advisers and other services better delivered elsewhere. This is a difficult one to call for the Met; I guess they've decided it's better on balance to only deal with fewer, more serious incidents when the (insufficient) appropriate mental health services are not there and the paramedics, ambulances and charities who come next, have reached their limit.

You may have issues with the police, and the Met in particular, but this is not of their making. This is the result of political choices made on funding for mental health services.

Either outcome is bad: less time spent on dealing with crime or more pressure on health workers already stretched to its limit.
 
Seanm said:
Hopefully will result in fewer deaths at the hands of police.
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I’d prefer the initial response to be ‘get right professional to the right place at the right time’.

Seeker_UK said:
You may have issues with the police, and the Met in particular, but this is not of their making.
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I have had issues with other services not having the capability or resources to deal with what they are statutorily required to do for many years. The culture of ‘the police will pick up the pieces, because they have the resources’ is not right, however you look at it. Thankfully the NHS Trust I worked with viewed this the same way.
 
Andrew C! said:
I have had issues with other services not having the capability or resources to deal with what they are statutorily required to do for many years. The culture of ‘the police will pick up the pieces, because they have the resources’ is not right, however you look at it. Thankfully the NHS Trust I worked with viewed this the same way.
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Apologies, I shouldn't have used "you" in my post, I meant other posters in this thread.
 
Is see there is a risk of running on the wrong side of the debate here in the rush to defend the indefensible.

Thousands of people in a mental health crisis will be “left without support” under worrying and inappropriate police plans to “walk away” from emergency incidents, health chiefs have said.

But health chiefs reacted with fury, suggesting that vulnerable people would be “left in limbo” and put at risk of harm. They also pointed out that it was only the police who could publicly section people in a mental health crisis.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ir-mark-rowley-mental-health-response-support

Metropolitan Police: Move to attend fewer mental health calls sparks alarm

Zoe Billingham, who was previously Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue, said the proposals could create a "vacuum".

The Royal College of Psychiatrists' president called the move "unhelpful".

She expressed doubts about the timeframe set by the Met for the change, adding that she would be "very surprised" if mental health trusts across London are able to get extra round-the-clock mental health facilities up and running by 31 August.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65741824
 
The point is that if somebody is in a public place and being a danger to themselves or others (and in the unlikely event of there being a passing mental health doctor of sufficient standing) then it is the responsibilty of the police to take said person to a safe place i.e. normally hospital, under the mental heath act. This is what the Met appears to be opting out of unilaterally to the great concern of health professionals. That should be enough to see the removal of the Commissioner (on top of his refusal to accept the term 'institutionally racist') in normal circumstances - I don't see how the Mayor can have continued confidence...
 
A person is detained under those sections of Mental Health Act that allow detention. This will usually be section 2 or section 3 and that will be on the basis of an assessment by a psychiatrist and a specialist mental health practitioner- usually, but not always, a social worker. The police commonly use section 136- removal to a place of safety, or less commonly 135- gaining entry to a residence to remove someone to a place of safety. If you are removed to a place of safety by the police under 135 or 136 then yes, you are effectively “sectioned.”
 
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