Is Naim snake oil?

[djftw]

As this is a Naim thread and service back up has come up, I feel I should mention that Naim have repaired an item that was out of warrenty and that I was the second owner of free of charge as 'that simply should not happen.' This is a level of service I have only experienced twice, from them and from Audi. (And in both cases it was arguably a part supplier's fault rather than their own!)

There are some other similarities between Naim and Audi I'd say. Neither makes the absolute best of what they make, niether makes very many things I can afford to buy new, but both make incredibly robust products that rarely go wrong (despite my very heavy usage and occasional abuse) and are usually easy to put right when they do. Both are plentiful on the second hand market and with a bit of care and patience buying used represents good performance for sensible money... Oh and taking the p!ss out of either is absolutely fine so long as you have a sense of humour about it, but if you have an absolutely humourless hatred of it you should probably consult a mental health professional

 

[S-Man]

I don't have any issues with Naim or Naim users. Audi drivers, on the other hand....
Where do I find a mental health professional?

 

[PerF]

The output stages of older Naim gear, olive and chrome bumper are affected by the speaker wire. Hence the recco to use a specific wire, anything later than Olive gear tends to be stable into a wide range of loads and doesn't need it.

It's not a myth, it's just largely outdated fact.

In fact some of my Naim kit is sounding better on longer lenght cables

Say a 6-7 mtr run is better than half of that

Cables are quite often discussed on the Naim forum, when the die hardest sheeps can't say anything but a full loom Superlumina some are more reasonable suggesting alternatives such as Chord, TQB, A4/K20 or s/h A5, the latter which seem to have reached a new level of RRP pricing during capital investors interference. 100% focus on buttomline.

 

[cartman]

I've had loads of happiness from using Naim kit over 30+ years. I don't give a monkeys what the naysayers have to say. I just enjoy the sound of Naim and I love the things JV allowed me to experience. He followed his passion and it shows in the things produced. For anyone who doesn't like Naim, good for them! There's plenty other bits out here. It won't stop me loving Naim.

 

[kimbleman]

The chap suggesting that because Naca5 has slightly larger gauge wires with respect old bean unless your are planning to position your speakers several kilometres apart (so far in fact you wouldn't even hear them) the difference is going to make absolutely no difference at all.... certainly not to voltage drop. I would imagine even in a largish room, your never likely to need cables of more than five metres and at these small voltages and frequencies cable effects would be practically unmeasurable. People perceive improvement because it's a gratification for spending more money (and believe me....it ain't worth it). But ask any physicist....and he/she will also inform you people are just kidding themselves! Using Bell wire might sound different to Naca5 (but I doubt it) but is that difference better or just that...different. I work with some of the world's leading physicists in superconducting magnets at seimens magnets technology....believe me they know a thing or two about conductors. The question of 'speaker cables' came up over lunch one day with three of them (all had a hifi system of one sort or another) and to a man they all laughed at the rubbish touted by hifi sales people and reviewers about sonic benefits of expensive cables. All concluded it's rubbish. Sorry guys.....shall we talk about supporting cables on little blocks now (that's just plain silly).

 

[stevec67]

A member for 8 years and only 120 posts and you turn this into a cable thread? Hang on while I get a fresh drink.

 

[Mike Reed]

There are some other similarities between Naim and Audi I'd say. Neither makes the absolute best of what they make, niether makes very many things I can afford to buy new, but both make incredibly robust products that rarely go wrong .....

Not according to the latest J.D.Power reliability etc. line-up. Audi is way down the list, though Skoda (same stable) is third. The emissions prob's may have influenced that, however, as Audi was hard-hit, I believe.

 

[Buntobox]

The chap suggesting that because Naca5 has slightly larger gauge wires with respect old bean unless your are planning to position your speakers several kilometres apart (so far in fact you wouldn't even hear them) the difference is going to make absolutely no difference at all.... certainly not to voltage drop. I would imagine even in a largish room, your never likely to need cables of more than five metres and at these small voltages and frequencies cable effects would be practically unmeasurable. People perceive improvement because it's a gratification for spending more money (and believe me....it ain't worth it). But ask any physicist....and he/she will also inform you people are just kidding themselves! Using Bell wire might sound different to Naca5 (but I doubt it) but is that difference better or just that...different. I work with some of the world's leading physicists in superconducting magnets at seimens magnets technology....believe me they know a thing or two about conductors. The question of 'speaker cables' came up over lunch one day with three of them (all had a hifi system of one sort or another) and to a man they all laughed at the rubbish touted by hifi sales people and reviewers about sonic benefits of expensive cables. All concluded it's rubbish. Sorry guys.....shall we talk about supporting cables on little blocks now (that's just plain silly).

Another entry in the hi-fi salesman's lexicon of silliness: I've been told that Meridian Speakerlink cable is able to transform the way electrons are delivered to my loudspeakers, even if there is only three feet of the stuff at the end of an otherwise CAT5 run from the preamp.

 

[Mike Reed]

The chap suggesting that because Naca5 has slightly larger gauge wires with respect old bean unless your are planning to position your speakers several kilometres apart (so far in fact you wouldn't even hear them) the difference is going to make absolutely no difference at all.... certainly not to voltage drop. I would imagine even in a largish room, your never likely to need cables of more than five metres and at these small voltages and frequencies cable effects would be practically unmeasurable. People perceive improvement because it's a gratification for spending more money (and believe me....it ain't worth it). But ask any physicist....and he/she will also inform you people are just kidding themselves! Using Bell wire might sound different to Naca5 (but I doubt it) but is that difference better or just that...different. I work with some of the world's leading physicists in superconducting magnets at seimens magnets technology....believe me they know a thing or two about conductors. The question of 'speaker cables' came up over lunch one day with three of them (all had a hifi system of one sort or another) and to a man they all laughed at the rubbish touted by hifi sales people and reviewers about sonic benefits of expensive cables. All concluded it's rubbish. Sorry guys.....shall we talk about supporting cables on little blocks now (that's just plain silly).

Dearie me ! I bow to your superior knowledge about my hypothesis that NAC A5 may be better 'in theory' than, e.g., NAC A4 because of core thickness. I do take some solace in that you say 'practically' no difference (re. voltage drop) with 5 metre runs (which is roughly what I have). I'm no whizz-kid like you on measurements, but I thought that capacitance had some bearing on earlier Naim stuff, but you only mention voltage.

My long runs of Chord Odyssey into my big ProAcs were comparable, if different, to my NAC A5 runs; the latter were, however, preferable overall. The Chord, though, simply didn't work adequately into the ESLs which came later. They are both, I believe, stranded copper cable (but could be wrong there). Wonder why these similarly priced cables were chalk and cheese with different types of speaker.

I shall just have to resign myself to mentally red-inking your English usage, then, where I obviously do have superior knowledge. I had no idea that my post (previous page) was so contentious ! I'm shaken for having stirred things up.

 

[kimbleman]

Ouch....just mearly pointing out that in the world of physics with the frequencies, voltages, currents and (comparatively) small loads (of the speakers) bell wire would do.
Sorry about the English usage.....tiny touch screen, bastard predictive nonsense and trying to work at the same time old chap.
A work document I would obviously carefully reviewed before publishing.
I guess it's personal choice at the end of the day.....a fool and his money and all that

 

[kimbleman]

Bugger.....no full stop!

 

[Mick P]

Chaps

Hifi enthusiasts are often their own worst enemy. The only thing you need to worry about regarding the sound coming out of your speakers is your ears. If it sounds good to you, then it is good.

If you honestly need to consult a technical data sheet about cable manufacture or the length of it etc, then you have well and truly lost the plot as well as common sense.

It is your ears that count and everything else is waffle.

End of a bloody pointless discussion.

Regards

Mick

PS I use two 8 metre lengths of NAC a5 because it fits the room. I bought the NAC a5 because Naim told me to and I trust their judgement and the 8 metre is the shortest length from speaker to amp. No need to make a science out of it

PPS May I ask you not to like my threads because

a) I don't care whether you like them or not
b) It means I sees a little red thingy and I have to waste my time clicking on the bloody thing and it is irritating.

 

[Mike Reed]

Bugger.....no full stop!

That's the least of your problems !. I bought my NAC A5 at least a generation ago; one is only foolish with hindsight. Seriously, I find it hard to believe that I can sonically improve the connectivity between my amplification and speakers than by using NAC A5, but I'd love to be proved wrong as relatively cheap upgrades are hard to come by.

 

[S-Man]

That's it chaps. Mick has decreed "End of a bloody pointless discussion".
Nothing more to be said or done. This not opinon, it's fact!

 

[Mike Reed]

PS I use two 8 metre lengths of NAC a5 because it fits the room. I bought the NAC a5 because Naim told me to and I trust their judgement and the 8 metre is the shortest length from speaker to amp.

That's a fair old length of room, Mick. If you still have the Briks and sit at t'other end of the room twiddling your knobs I can understand. My speakers are only half-way down the room (well, two-thirds at most).

 

[Rockmeister]

As this is a Naim thread and service back up has come up, I feel I should mention that Naim have repaired an item that was out of warrenty and that I was the second owner of free of charge as 'that simply should not happen.' This is a level of service I have only experienced twice, from them and from Audi. (And in both cases it was arguably a part supplier's fault rather than their own!)

There are some other similarities between Naim and Audi I'd say. Neither makes the absolute best of what they make, niether makes very many things I can afford to buy new, but both make incredibly robust products that rarely go wrong (despite my very heavy usage and occasional abuse) and are usually easy to put right when they do. Both are plentiful on the second hand market and with a bit of care and patience buying used represents good performance for sensible money... Oh and taking the p!ss out of either is absolutely fine so long as you have a sense of humour about it, but if you have an absolutely humourless hatred of it you should probably consult a mental health professional

Which is odd because, looking to buy our third audi, we wandered into the local dealer but were met with such indifference, lack of service, lack of politeness and etc from the staff that we walked out and bought a merc instead.
I never bought Naim, but Naim dealers were twice so offhand and dismissive about the kit I owned at the time of the Naim enquiery, that similarly, I was put off and left.
Sometimes, the product is GREAT, but the people representing it, absolute tossers.

 

[Mike Reed]

That's it chaps. Mick has decreed "End of a bloody pointless discussion".
Nothing more to be said or done. This not opinon, it's fact!

Nah ! Spanish practices ! This is not the end; it is not even the beginning of..........

 

[Rockmeister]

Chaps


I bought the NAC a5 because Naim told me to and I trust their judgement and the 8 metre is the shortest length from speaker to amp. No need to make a science out of it

Well. The gun you bought and pointed at your own foot is, methinks, still smoking.
There is no NEED I agree, and some people eat sugary sweets too and don't care about geting fat, but the Science has been done, so even if your head is tempted by that pile of sand, it won't send the bad scientists away.

Even with kit I LOVE, I take all makers and designers claims with a tesco's half litre cannister of salt.

 

[James]

Which is odd because, looking to buy our third audi, we wandered into the local dealer but were met with such indifference, lack of service, lack of politeness and etc from the staff that we walked out and bought a merc instead.
I never bought Naim, but Naim dealers were twice so offhand and dismissive about the kit I owned at the time of the Naim enquiery, that similarly, I was put off and left.
Sometimes, the product is GREAT, but the people representing it, absolute tossers.

I had a parallel experience. For my 50th birthday, I was going to treat myself to a brand new German car. Coming from a Subaru Legacy, I thought an AWD Audi A4 or S4 Avant would be a natural choice. I couldn't even get a test drive without booking ahead, even when they clearly had demo cars available on the yard. In contrast, the BMW dealership let me take three variants of the 3-series for drives, including one overnight. Shortly thereafter, I ordered a 335i Touring.

I won't comment about how Naim and I parted ways, but it's noteworthy that the dealer drove an Audi at the time.

 

[PerF]

Chaps

. I bought the NAC a5 because Naim told me to and I trust their judgement .

Mick, "judgement" was based during JV management and I hardly hear a bad word from this era

It was decades ago and most of us found happiness and satisfaction in we could fit and forget cable voodoo

Things have moved on and changed in Salisbury now I wouldn't for a second trust them "$$$ judgement"

I do however agree with you its our ears that counts.