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is Naim Pre-Amp necessary with i-tunes?

Can an expert please settle an argument between my old man and me.
He has put together a system comprising NAP 300 with power supply with a Naim DAC and Hard drive boxes (not sure of models, HDX?) again with 555 power supplies. His source is an apple pc. He does NOT have a Pre-Amp simply using the volume control on Apple. No other source such as vinyl, C.D used.
He seems to think he does NOT NEED A PRE-AMP?
Surely a Pre-Amp such as NAC 252 does more than simply provide control for different sources?
I thought the Pre-Amp provide a wider sound stage and refined the sound?
My Dad thinks Naim are taking the piss and you only need Pre-Amp to switch between different sources.
Please tell me he is barking mad?
 
People do. I've just bought a DAC to check out the Mac DAC thing and I'm going to try it without the pre when I get another cable. So I'll see how it sounds then.
 
Can an expert please settle an argument between my old man and me.
He has put together a system comprising NAP 300 with power supply with a Naim DAC and Hard drive boxes (not sure of models, HDX?) again with a 55 power supply. His source is an apple pc. He does NOT have a Pre-Amp simply using the volume control on Apple. No other source such as vinyl, C.D used.
He seems to think he does NOT NEED A PRE-AMP?
Surely a Pre-Amp such as NAC 252 does more than simply provide control for different sources?
I thought the Pre-Amp provide a wider sound stage and refined the sound?
My Dad thinks Naim are taking the piss and you only need Pre-Amp to switch between different sources.
Please tell me he is barking mad?

ANY piece of equipment added to the chain will result in some loss of actual quality, yer dad is right, if you can negate the pre-amp then you should in my opinion. I frequently use my Shanling direct into my TVA Valve with lovely results, rather than run it through the NVA Passive Pre..Not really sure how the addition of a pre can widen the sound stage unless there is some electronic, maybe digital processing going on..Naim arn't taking the Piss a such, just trying to fool yer dad into parting with ever more money..is my guess.
 
I no longer use a preamp. I feed both my DAC and phono stage each of which have their own volume control via a two-way switch directly into the power amps.

My Grad1 is now up for sale............

Cheers,

DV
 
Can an expert please settle an argument between my old man and me.
He has put together a system comprising NAP 300 with power supply with a Naim DAC and Hard drive boxes (not sure of models, HDX?) again with 555 power supplies. His source is an apple pc. He does NOT have a Pre-Amp simply using the volume control on Apple. No other source such as vinyl, C.D used.
He seems to think he does NOT NEED A PRE-AMP?
Surely a Pre-Amp such as NAC 252 does more than simply provide control for different sources?
I thought the Pre-Amp provide a wider sound stage and refined the sound?
My Dad thinks Naim are taking the piss and you only need Pre-Amp to switch between different sources.
Please tell me he is barking mad?
Surely if you alter the volume in the computer (iTunes, I assume), you are altering the digital resolution? This can't be a good thing, can it? You could easily end up using, say, 8 bits instead of 16 (or 24).

Any electronics in the signal path can only degrade the sound. The trick is to minimise this while still allowing for source selection, gain, balance, and the rest, and this is why some preamps cost silly money.
 
bloody hell packtech thats EXACTLY what he said

No that is NOT what he said or asked. He states that the pre amp can give a wider soundstage and that his Father thinks he doesn't need one...

"I thought the Pre-Amp provide a wider sound stage and refined the sound?"

"He seems to think he does NOT NEED A PRE-AMP?"

"My Dad thinks Naim are taking the piss and you only need Pre-Amp to switch between different sources.
Please tell me he is barking mad?"

Just how the hell can my reply be exactly what the OP said/asked??

Please read the OP and then read my answer..Please.

My reply was agreeing with his Father....
 
Surely if you alter the volume in the computer (iTunes, I assume), you are altering the digital resolution? This can't be a good thing, can it? You could easily end up using, say, 8 bits instead of 16 (or 24).

You're right. But if you use some software with a proper dithered volume control such as PureMusic then this doesn't affect the resolution. In iTunes you should make sure that all the EQ and volume normalising functions are disabled.
 
In iTunes you should make sure that all the EQ and volume normalising functions are disabled.
Agreed, you should not use the iTunes volume control unless you want to degrade the sound.
 
I know disabling the I-pod pre is big gain in sound when using portable head amps. The same is true when using using I-tunes from the lap top.
 
You're right. But if you use some software with a proper dithered volume control such as PureMusic then this doesn't affect the resolution. In iTunes you should make sure that all the EQ and volume normalising functions are disabled.
I'll have to see if I can find how this works. I thought dithering was only about making best use of the LSB.
 
There's a lot to be said for actually listening to both options and deciding accordingly, without asking experts ;)

FWIW the official party line is that the NAC ensures that the NAP isn't fed signals that might embarrass it (essentially HF filtering). From the manufacturer point of view this makes sense as it should ensure a consistent performance and fewer blown amps/speakers. Naim also believe that the pre/power when used together gives the best sound under all conditions.
Ignore the party line and you are on your own. Might work superbly well, but be aware that you've left the power amplifier open to any HF crud that might be on the line.
 
I don't use a pre-amp and as I only use a turntable my phono stage which has a volume control goes directly into my Naim 250. Output match is important and after a bit of research I found that my phono stage puts out almost exactly what a NAC does.
 
There is absolutely nothing wrong with modern digital volume controls. This includes the one in iTunes running under OS X 10x (currently 10.6 Snow-Leopard)

The information given by Muzzer above is out of date, and with current versions of the software, is completely wrong.

Jack Barrier quotes the benchmark document which is also woefully out of date but contains this information
- " The user should not hesitate to use the volume control in iTunes v7.x and 8.X "

We are of course well into iTunes version 10, - 24 bit mixers and level controls, correctly applied dithering to avoid quantisation error, and W7 is as good.

Weiss make this observation in their technical advice sheet on digital volume controls.
". . . with today’s 24 bit converters – no question that a level control with a 24 bit wordlength easily rivals the best analog level controls. By the way, 24 bits means 16,777,216 quantization steps . . . "

It seems to be a common misconception on this forum that digital volume controls degrade the audio quality.

They haven't done for several years now, and on 24 bit capable systems they may be used without worry.

JC
 
p.s. the problems principally arise with iTunes V6 and Windows XP. Time to move to current versions, if digital level control gives you problems. - JC
 
Go into Quick Time. Go to edit/preferences/Quick Time preferences/audio. You will be greeted with an option of 32KHZ to 192 KHZ and a bit rate of 16 or 24.
 
Not if the quality was originally 16/44.1, but could be used to down-sample a higher resolution file if that was necessary for some reason.

But it's still nothing to do with the the digital volume control which on current software always operates at 24 bit.

JC
 


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