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Is it time for active speakers?

Passive crossovers cause distortion because of coil inductance variation with position and thermal resistance changes. Under-specified inductor nonlinarity doesn't help either
I think you're supposed to secure all XO componentry so they don't move. :p

FWIW, I have external XOs to some of my designs. As such, I can touch, probe and generally admire my handiwork whilst they do their job. One of my curiosities was how hot do the components get when I'm caning my loudspeakers. My answer was, not very - if at all remotely warm to the touch.
 
I think you're supposed to secure all XO componentry so they don't move. :p
A typical mid bass driver impedance is dominated by coil inductance above about 1kHz. This inductance will vary with the coil motor position in the gap.

A true active speaker allows the interesting possibility of using the known non linearity of the driver to do a feed forward error compensation. This could reduce distortion by an order of magnitude and might be much cheaper to implement than exotic pole and suspension designs
 
A true active speaker allows the interesting possibility of using the known non linearity of the driver to do a feed forward error compensation. This could reduce distortion by an order of magnitude and might be much cheaper to implement than exotic pole and suspension designs

Do you know any examples of where somebody has actually got this technique to work?
 
There are genuine advantages with active operation, especially when the crossover is implemented digitally, DSP can be used to correct driver anomalies, reduce distortion ,the Kii's have a motion feedback circuit, the speakers can limit themselves to avoid damage , correct overall phase, virtual point source, added to the features I mentioned earlier a whole host of advantages over passive .
Keith

All of what you have said here are disadvantages to the proper reproduction of music, not advantages...
 
Don't be silly Graham.
Keith

Yes of course Keith, I forgot you were an expert on all things audio. I would have thought that representing Cessaro you would have learnt a few things about sound and what it takes to reproduce it correctly with the minimum of intervention.

I have yet to hear any active speaker system out perform a good passive loudspeaker. Maybe at the budget end of the market this is different.
 
Back in the mid nineties I bought new, an all Naim system - 72/Hi-Cap/180/SBL's - which is where I had my first introduction to the aural advantages of active operation.

The SBL's passive, and then active with the addition of Naim's active crossover and another 180 completely transformed the SBL's and took them to another level of greatly improved performance, and at once, became 'on the shopping' list for an later upgrade as and when the budget would allow.

In the event, going active with separate boxes for everything was and remains a significant hurdle, and meantime AV came along and diverted the active budget in that direction instead.

And in going AV, eventually the Naim electronics were all sold off in favour of Sony 9000ES, which also happened to outperform the Naim electronics on critical music listening via the SBL's as well.

Some years later it was time for a new telly, and in part because I'd always liked them, ended up after careful thought and audition, with a B&O TV.

This has a fully active speaker array - a 4" bass/mid and two 1" tweeters - each with it's own 32watts ICE power amp.

What really blew my mind was doing some level matched (measured) listening comparing the Active speaker array in the TV, with the SBL's driven by the 9000ES digital amp.

Source was ALAC CD rips in iTunes streamed to either the B&O or the TA-DA9000ES/SBL's.

Naturally enough, no speaker array on a flat 40" wide 'baffle' is going to have the stereo imaging and separation of a proper Hifi setup, nor is there ever going to be the bass out of a single 4" driver that would compete with a pair of SBL's.

And yet, on transient response, dynamics on every level (macro and micro) and out and out resolution, which translated to everything from previously unheard footfalls in a recording, to hearing much more timbral colour, the 'chuff' of organ pipes, and the 'knock' of a pianos hammers hitting strings, the B&O TV sound system was the more musically involving and satisfying listen - overall.

And in that sense it proved to be something of Trojan horse buy, as I found it extremely pleasing to live with and listen to music on, as well as watch movies, and within a few months I purchased new a pair of Beolab 9's.

The engineering arguments are in - provided all other things are equal, active operation is always better than passive.

I don't think active operation will advance much in the consumer hobbyist market - as Keith aptly points out, if you just want to hear what is on the CD, then active is the way to go, but if you prefer to try and create your own 'sound' or mix and match a lot of kit, then probably not.

However, time poor millennials as they start flexing their financial muscle, will most likely want to listen to music, watch movies, and other media in the home, but will almost certainly not do it by emulating the setups of their fathers and grandfathers.

Increased population density means ever smaller dwellings for most, and the room for large multi-boxed separates system is becoming harder to find.

Separates systems, and the methods of building them, are arguably a legacy of the 1950's, and whilst they may remain a niche for the hardcore audiophile hobbyist, the new age Hifi enthusiast and music/film lover is farm more likely to turn to active systems on performance, space, and aesthetic grounds.

I did, and I doubt that I'd ever go back to a passive system - the advantages of active for me are to great speaking personally.

Cheers :)
 
Here
http://kiiaudio.com/en/tech.html
Grimm also in their LS1 and also I believe the new Dutch&Dutch 8C.
Keith

That depends on what is in the box labelled "motion control".

A clipping reducer is not impressive. Active correction of the drive unit parameters is impressive, if that's what they are actually doing and they have got it to work properly.

e.g. This looks great in theory, but I am reliably informed it is tricky (understatement alert!!) in practice:
https://www.klippel.de/uploads/media/Klippel__Stabilization_of_loudspeakers__LA_AES_2014.pdf
 
On the general topic of active speakers I heard two or three of this company's speakers at a hifi show. I thought they sounded awful, with excessive boomy bass - like a pimped Corsa.

http://www.backesmueller.de/en/b-m-technology.html

Maybe a better advert for actives are ATCs, which can sound fairly good. I'd still take a pair of Kudos Titans over any ATC speaker though.
 
On the general topic of active speakers I heard two or three of this company's speakers at a hifi show. I thought they sounded awful, with excessive boomy bass - like a pimped Corsa.

http://www.backesmueller.de/en/b-m-technology.html

Maybe a better advert for actives are ATCs, which can sound fairly good. I'd still take a pair of Kudos Titans over any ATC speaker though.

I heard the Kudos speakers at last year's 'Indulgence' show driven by a wall of amps, can't remember what they were at the moment , Devialet perhaps?
Backes/Mueller are usually at Munich.
Keith
 
I heard the Kudos speakers at last year's 'Indulgence' show driven by a wall of amps, can't remember what they were at the moment , Devialet perhaps?
Backes/Mueller are usually at Munich.
Keith

It's easy to forget that around 75-80% of what we hear from a HiFi system in a room, is the ambient/reflected sound field, over an above the direct sound from the speaker itself.

Which is again why, despite all it's other clever design features, the Beolab 90 is such a technical tour de force and advance in the art of loudspeaker making, AND the integration of loudspeakers and rooms acoustically speaking (pun intended).

It's not surprising, but none the less disappointing that active speakers arouse so little interest in the home hobbyist audiophile community - clearly mixing and matching to attempt to arrive at some sort of sound to taste, is much more important than simply hearing what was on the recording as faithfully and authentically as possible.

And fair enough, but then, that's not HiFi as I knew it to be defined either - audiophile hobbyists have skipped tone controls and equalisers, and swapped in cables and gear swapping as a way of attempting to tailor the sound of their system to suit.

Meantime, the room is contributing 80% odd of the sound, but few audiophiles appear to think of that beyond the very basics such as carpets and drapes unfortunately.

When you think that moving a pair of speakers a few inches closer to or further away from a boundary, or changing the angle such as to alter the direct to reflected sound ratio, will change the sound quite noticeably compared to swapping out amps and sources, let alone cables and stands, the speaker room interface is one of the last challenges, and areas where genuine advances can be made.

That the latest active speaker designs can compensate for room effects, and that this technology will filter down to more cost effective models is a given. That so many audiophiles ignore this potential, and still cling to 1950's passive separates system building methodology is, outside of niche hobbyist audiophile box swappers, rather disappointing to observe.

The audio and acoustic engineering answers are largely there, but few in the audiophile hobbyist world seem to want to look - most especially I daresay the marketers of 1920's and 1950's technology dressed up in 21st century clothes, and understandably so, as it is from sales of which they derive an income.

So, no, amongst audiophile baby boomers, few will likely embrace active systems; for millennials though, it's likely to be a very different story.

Cheers
 
Often the room is a given (unless you have a dedicated room) and cant be messed with , so electronic room correction like Dirac , room perfect , Acourate , brute FIR has to be used.
These can ameliorate some but not all room effects but are better than nothing

Its as easy to apply time and freq DSP to actives than to passives ....
 
I would have given the beolabs time of day and a listen if there was a pair in the country..
The G1 spirits are $92 000 and the custom paint job is about another $5000
BUT I had the option of playing with my older g1's (rrp $60 000) and the spirits for a month and to keep whichever I prefer (the spirits are a no brainer) .. they then gave me full value on my G1's as a trade inand I paid the difference. Effectively I paid $50k for the spirits

The only alternative I would have considered as against the spirits was a set of Avant garde Trios and 6 basshorns .. however that was at a cost of Eu 140 000.. and I didnt like the Trios "shoutiness"
 
Example(s)?
There are serious limits of how much feedback you can use in motional feedback. Feed forward offers improvement without the transient problems.
As we are so used to bass doubling, a linear speaker is going to sound thin
 
I though Feed-Forward was how things were done as standard. The signal from the source is fed forward to the amplifier?
 


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