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Is it "nuclear"? Or is it a "rocket"?

Tim Jones

pfm Member
There's been some speculation on social media about the Russian "event" last week, and I had a bit of folk-memory lingering about these systems.

There is undoubtedly such a thing as a "nuclear rocket" wherein a single element fuel (usually liquid hydrogen) is ignited and propelled into a propulsion chamber by an nuclear "isotopic" system; which is essentially a lightweight, unshielded reactor. If the operational requirement is a vehicle with insanely long range, or almost loiter-time, then it's the only thing that will work.

With project Pluto, the US got quite far ahead with something similar (albeit a ramjet rather than a "rocket") in the late fifties, before the Johnson administration pulled the plug in 1964, on the rather understated basis that it was a "provocative system".

Apart from the multiple warheads that it could have flown around and dropped with relative impunity (all this is theoretical btw...), the vehicle itself was a very nasty weapon. It would have contaminated swathes of whatever it overflew with radioactive emissions. Added to which, the shockwave of something flying at Mach 4.2, under 1000 feet would have broken many things underneath it, including the civilian population's will to do anything except cower under their beds. And the fact that when it eventually crashed it would constitute an enormous dirty bomb...

Whatever one thinks of the Trump administration, pulling out of the INF (or other) treaties on the basis of the development of such a barbaric system seems completely reasonable.
 
Sorry but I find this description difficult to follow, and I have a PhD in Physics. Why would you need anything nuclear for a rocket burning hydrogen?

Pulling out of non-proliferation treaties is pure folly.

This was the US ramjet version:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersonic_Low_Altitude_Missile

This was as much as anyone has on what was being tested at Severodvinsk last week:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M730_Burevestnik

From memory, the "rocket" does away with one of the two usual rocket liquid fuels (LOX, Kerosene, etc) by superheating liquid hydrogen (or some variant) into the combustion chamber. I'm not sure how the turbopump would work. A bit like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_thermal_rocket

It would be an awful lot safer from a testing perspective if it was using a solid fuel, but given that solids are not usually throttle-able, and the operational requirement would demand it, that's unlikely. Don't SpaceX use a variable throttle solid fuel though?

It must be a nightmare to test, and (one assumes) would be an even worse nightmare to operationally manage.
 
I think a liquid propulsion system would likely involve hydrazine rather than hydrogen. I am no expert however.
 
The liquid propulsion system is to get it going fast enough for the nuclear ramjet to work, plus I wouldn't like to be be near the rocket when the reactor goes critical with no shielding, so the plan may be to get it far enough away before starting it.
 
Sorry, original post is nonsense - I presume that is what Dozey is trying to avoid saying. It is now said.
 
Sorry, original post is nonsense - I presume that is what Dozey is trying to avoid saying. It is now said.
Having read the Wiki links, it seems credible to me. Why is it nonsense? Essentially the propellant is stored gas, superheated by fission rather than relying on chemical combustion to heat and expand it. The American variant was a ramjet, so didn’t even need to store propellant beyond that necessary to get it to operating speed.
 
Tim's post is not 'nonsense' - there have been several proposals along these lines, all deriving from the original Project Orion idea.

It is deeply scary shit if true - in essence, the willingness to use a one-shot small nuclear reactor to generate or boost the essential heat input for a jet (or hypersonic jet) reaction engine, showering the flight path with the radioactive fission-products. And for months if 'necessary' until the reactor exhausted, in the originating (US) proposals. The point being - even if the warhead fails, the flight path is salted - even to annihilation.

Even 1960s US hawks thought the thing, such a responsibility, unthinkable. Yet here we are again.


(and the US side is long in public-domain. Go read up on it, @Vinny)
 
Yanks pull out of agreements and suddenly the soviets have a nasty new weapon system.

Gullible or what?
 
It's a bit more nasty than that, Bob: 'Yanks pull out of agreements and suddenly the soviets have a nasty new weapon system go pop in a heavily-populated area, where they develop nasty new weapon systems - while essentially wanting to deny the large spike in radionuclide emissions after a bang at that local factory, is in any way a large spike in radionuclide emissions'.

The OrangeTwat's effing-up the treaty likely has little to do with what must be already in-place/ ongoing programme of something really hideous - as part of which, it seems a weasel just went pop.
 
Whatever one thinks of the Trump administration, pulling out of the INF (or other) treaties on the basis of the development of such a barbaric system seems completely reasonable.
A barbaric system that conspiracy theorists are talking about on Twitter, you mean?

What would seem completely reasonable would be new treaties designed to get rid of nuclear weapons, not escalation, but while the Russians are open to new treaties the US wants to get rid of the old ones.
 
Thinking about it a bit more iSTR it takes a good few minutes for a reactor to reach full power, so they most likely have to start it before launch, whoopie! glad it's not my job starting an unshielded nuclear reactor. So my guess is they started it, then when they tried to launch it, it blew up causing a radiation spike, then as the reactor is now disassembled, i.e in bits, radiation levels fell back.
 
Thinking about it a bit more iSTR it takes a good few minutes for a reactor to reach full power, so they most likely have to start it before launch, whoopie! glad it's not my job starting an unshielded nuclear reactor. So my guess is they started it, then when they tried to launch it, it blew up causing a radiation spike, then as the reactor is now disassembled, i.e in bits, radiation levels fell back.
It’s poetic justice- just as when a suicide vest goes off before the wearer leaves the workshop. I hope it’s created a manpower/knowledge problem for them.
 
Stands to reason details of all US advanced weapon systems/black projects are available on Wiki.
If the 'weapon' has unlimited range then it doesn't come under the INF.
Given the vengeance nature of the weapon to roam and take out what's left, ie for use after an ICBM exchange the notion of a radioactive-polluting exhaust is rather moot....
 
Definitely why we need a world wide ban on short and medium range nukes and that means everybody.

Not likely when Trump's in the Whitehouse.

“Several months ago, a foreign policy expert on the international level went to advise Donald Trump. And three times [Trump] asked about the use of nuclear weapons. Three times he asked at one point if we had them why can’t we use them,” Scarborough said on his “Morning Joe” program.

People persuade themselves that extreme damage is 'survivable' one way or another and worth the pain—look at Brexit.

I could easily see a Trump or other populist leader drum up support to use these things. And once used, I suspect there's no going back.

Stephen
 


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