Inner groove distortion
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Mescalito
pfm Member
That's the plan, Tony
.I'll do it to those I consider to be truly iconic, not necessarily musically iconic, but iconic as pieces of cover art as well.
For that reason, the Incredible String Band's " The 5000 Spirits or the Layers of the Onion" with it's astonishing Simon & Marijke cover is a definite, Bitches Brew, After Bathing At Baxter's, Bollocks, Closer, Topograhical Oceans, Sgt. Pepper, Skull & Roses.... I've got about 40 on the list, but realistically I need to trim that down to 10-15.
I've got a sub project to do the same for albums featuring the work of the great San Francisco cover artists such as Kelley, Mouse, Griffin & Moscoso, but my old lady says one lot or the other. I'll probably end upcombining the 2 strands.
Chris
Some of the cartridges I've owned quite recently; Nagaoka MP-200, Nagaoka MP-100, AT440MLa, Stanton 885 LZS, Pickering XV-15/625E, Denon DL-160, Goldring Eroica and whatnot.. many more.
Not any of them do the same thing AT95E does. I also had the AT95SA (shibata), but sold the stylus quickly. While the Shibata stylus does indeed track cleaner, it's also leaner - in the wrong way IMO. At least in my modest setup.
AT95E isn't perfect, far from it, but many of those so called tracking/tracing issues with the cartridge are really just about bad records, bad setup, cheap/poor turntables. People just don't seem to be bothered "as the cartridge is so cheap".
When it comes to tracing the inner grooves, that styli profile thing is only half-true (if even that). The quality of polishing, the quality of diamond and the cantilever play much bigger role - actually those so called "scientifc" papers commonly spread in internet about stylus tracing present rather unrealistic situations and way too hot grooves. They rarely - if ever - exist in real life!!
While AT440MLa distorts less than AT95E, it isn't a problem free design, and has little to do with the way the stylus is cut. Many people are IME AND IMO under the misconception that stylus profile is everything and is the major cause for poor tracing. It is not.
Now, I'm making some outrageous claims here, but anyone can refer to vinylengine.com and some of the discussions that have been going on there for years about styli and their profiles. While the quality of written content in that site is questionable to some extent, there are people who have talked against these marketing schemes about styli profiles, and have convinced me to some extent. They've also provided data. My experiences support this.
Being a skeptic, I never think things final. My own experiences are very narrow as well, and I present my findings naively. I just wanna make few opposing points, because I don't want people to take these things for granted.
AT440MLa might solve IGD in this particular case, but will it introduce some other issues? Finding a good cartridge is really hard - like really really hard. Maybe Linn is the answer, but I don't know just yet. I have NEVER heard a cart that can track 100% correctly, but that is just the issue with vinyl I guess. Nothing is perfect, I enjoy this format and AT95E allows me to do so - most of the time.
Tony L
Administrator
I really don't agree. Sure, it's a great cart for the cash, but it's easily outclassed by spending some more. It's a cartridge I've a lot of experience, I always kept one around as a spare in my Linn/Naim days so ran it in a LP12/Ittok and later a Zeta. I've more recently compared (another fresh one) against other carts in my slate-mounted 301 with a SME M2-10, a seriously good deck by any standards and very capable of showing up the differences between carts, tracking, tracing etc. Something with a decent tip such as a 2M Black, 540/II, AT 33PTG etc simply kill it, though one would seriously hope so given the price differential. By saying that I think some folk just don't care about distortion in vinyl replay and focus their minds entirely on other aspects as I've regularly heard decks at dealers, in homes etc that I consider unlistenable at end of side, yet others seem unconcerned. We all hear things differently!
I'm very sensitive to tracing and tracking errors, but I know what you're trying to say. (I definitely know how sibilance or mistracking sounds and it irritates the heck out of me.)
I appreciate your experiences and knowledge, they're much larger than mine, but I prefer to view the matter purely through physical/mechanical issue, not through peoples' experiences. Experiences are always relative, never absolute. Like here;
Few exampleswhere other things than the shape/profile of a stylus audibly affect the playback issues addressed in this thread are; Ortofon 2M Red vs Ortofon 2M Blue (same radius r/R 8/18 µm, same elliptical shape according to the manufacturer, but blue has better quality whole diamond and many people report it giving little to no IGD/Sibilance where as 2M Red has disotortion problems on many setups), Nagaoka MP-110 vs MP-200. Now I have heard that even the bonded MP-110 tracks like a beast, but I've never tested it myself. At least the common .4x.7 profiled nude stylus of MP-200 in a boron cantilever didn't distort nearly at all, nor there are widely reported issues with IGD with this cartridge.
Yes people complain about IGD with AT95E, and I accept that there might be some amount on hot records, but the culprit is totally something else than the shape of the stylus profile. YMMV
I rest my case. Let me just say that I'm fine with people disagreeing with me - each have their way of reaching the truth, so to speak. I just wish people wouldn't buy all the (slightly misleading) marketing that has been involved with cartridge manufacturing for many years. Advanced stylus profiles HAVE disadvantages (in addition to many advantages) when compared to spherical/pseudo-elliptical profiles (they have their rather obvious disadvantages too).
Tony L
Administrator
IYes people complain about IGD with AT95E, and I accept that there might be some amount on hot records, but the culprit is totally something else than the shape of the stylus profile. YMMV
Again I don't agree. The most simple test I can suggest you try is to find a nice condition Linn K9 (they are based on the AT95E generator), play a record and listen to the end of side tracing. Now swap the stylus for the AT95E (it will fit and work perfectly, it just looks a bit odd as it doesn't have the same plastic side moulding), rebalance the arm and set the weight appropriately. Now play the same end-of-side again. You will observe IGD goes through the roof, what was crisp, clean and clear (assuming you found a nice tidy K9) is now somewhat gritty, grainy and zingy. Now consider what we are listening to here... it's merely the difference between a cheap and crudely-mounted elliptical tip and the far nicer and more costly Vital (fine-line / shibata-like) profile of the K9. All that's changed here is the stylus assembly. You could do a similar test by say swapping the stylus of a Ortofon 510 (cheap elliptical) for a 540 (fancy nude-mounted Geiger fine-line). No changes anywhere else, yet a massive difference in performance.
Robert
Tapehead
I'm very
Yes people complain about IGD with AT95E, and I accept that there might be some amount on hot records, but the culprit is totally something else than the shape of the stylus profile. YMMV
Your mileage won't vary - the stylus profile on the 95 is physically incapable of clean HF tracing on inner grooves. Ok on the outer tracks (about the first 25% of the playing surface if the cut isn't hot) or on 45rpm. if this distortion proves inaudible then the listener has high tolerance of IGD.
Of course other things influence playback, but the critical junction of tip to vinyl is just that - critical, and no amount of variance in the rest of the design will make two ill-fitting shapes fit properly. It's rather like saying that you can tighten a flat head screw with a philips head screwdriver if only you exert more force.
G
Guest432
Guest
I'd digitise them & store them on a HDD, Robert.
I'm in the process of essentially giving away most of my LPs. Some I am keeping, but really, I don't know why
As long as I have the music, the associations with my life story are fully intact.
Different strokes, eh?
Chris
Thought you are a staunch capitalist surely you should be selling them
Maxbertola
pfm Member
Inner groove distortion of LPs was what sent me into the CD's arms 27 years ago.
Each time I am unsatisfied with something digital, I think of my sufferance when I was forced to hear distorted, shrill fortissimos in the last cm of an LP (I am talking of orchestra and chorus now, but I could also mention the last, warbling minute of While my guitar gently weeps, or of Monday, monday, as any copy of them meowed a little), and I love CD again.
Each time I am unsatisfied with something digital, I think of my sufferance when I was forced to hear distorted, shrill fortissimos in the last cm of an LP (I am talking of orchestra and chorus now, but I could also mention the last, warbling minute of While my guitar gently weeps, or of Monday, monday, as any copy of them meowed a little), and I love CD again.
unit
pfm Member
This is all very informative and entertaining...
It would appear that the take-home message here that if I have the geometry right (I do) but IGD is still present (it is), then the culprit is most likely the cartridge.
If this is the case, then can I ask for opinions on the Ortofon 2M blue vs AT440mla? I would assume that the AT is better suited to the Hadcock...
It would appear that the take-home message here that if I have the geometry right (I do) but IGD is still present (it is), then the culprit is most likely the cartridge.
If this is the case, then can I ask for opinions on the Ortofon 2M blue vs AT440mla? I would assume that the AT is better suited to the Hadcock...
Michael J
pfm Member
The culprit is the fact that you are not playing the record back in exactly the same way that it was originally cut, and there's not a great deal you can do about that except use a linear tracker (which still have their issues). Longer arms may help, but introduce other issues. And of course there are the other stages involved in pressing a record from the original acetates that can never improve matters...
Better tip profiles certainly help, some quite considerably, possibly more than any longer arm.
Mescalito
pfm Member
Thought you are a staunch capitalist surely you should be selling them
Too much hassle.
Chris
Robert
Tapehead
The 440 gets IGD about as low as possible thanks to the ML stylus.
It's also a good cartridge generally - effectively the same internal design that AT have used for their MMs for over 30 years with success. It just has a much nicer diamond and tapered cantilever. Being AT, they make thousands of the things and they are consistently good between samples.
It won't cure the sound of IGD from a record that's been played many times on a poor stylus, but it won't add any of it's own.
Fine on a low-medium mass arm like a Hadcock.
There are some music samples taken from a 440 and AT33PTG on my site if you want to download and have a listen for yourself. Sort of try before you buy
(...and no I don't sell cartridges).
kasperhauser
pfm Member
My "problem" is with the general unhelpfulness of your "solution".
- I got rid of inner groove distortion by selling my turntable and never playing records.
- I solved the issue of poor windshield wiper performance by selling my car and walking everywhere.
- I cured my toenail fungus by cutting off my feet.
See? It's easy, and correspondingly valueless.
Mescalito
pfm Member
That is absolutely, 100% the only way to eliminate IGD, my friend.
If IGD is bothering you, dont listen to vinyl. It is a function of the geometry of the situation.
Chris
kasperhauser
pfm Member
Surely you aren't suggesting that the degree of inner groove distortion is a constant, unaffected by any setup parameters or stylus geometries? Assuming that to be the case, the way you can be helpful is to suggest methods to minimize it, as has been done by many knowledgeable and helpful people.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are at least intelligent enough to understand that it's likely that the OP is intelligent enough to understand that eliminating vinyl playback (1) eliminates inner grove distortion, and (2) is not an option under consideration (hence the thread). Which makes your continued presence on the thread inexplicable, or it would if your MO wasn't already firmly established in countless similar threads.
Edit: Out of deference to the OP, I won't derail the conversation any further, but I'll continue to read and learn. I doubt you will show the same decorum.
It seems to me there are 2 reasons for IGD.
Tracing errors, which can be ameliorated by using a more sophisticated stylus profile, which has both taller contact area and lower mass too so raising the upper frequency resonance.
Tracking error, which is an inevitable consequence of a pivoted arm. Tracking error can be reduced by using a longer arm, 12" arms are in fashion at the moment so several are available. A tangential tracking solution is best but the only one I know of without excessive lateral effective mass has been out of production for over 20 years.
There are more than one opinions on where tracking error is most annoying/audible resulting in more than one cartridge alignment being proposed. Experimenting with the one giving the least tracking error end of side may be worthwhile.
My solution is one of the >20 year old parallel trackers so it is a long time since I played with cartridge alignment on a pivoted arm.
Tracing errors, which can be ameliorated by using a more sophisticated stylus profile, which has both taller contact area and lower mass too so raising the upper frequency resonance.
Tracking error, which is an inevitable consequence of a pivoted arm. Tracking error can be reduced by using a longer arm, 12" arms are in fashion at the moment so several are available. A tangential tracking solution is best but the only one I know of without excessive lateral effective mass has been out of production for over 20 years.
There are more than one opinions on where tracking error is most annoying/audible resulting in more than one cartridge alignment being proposed. Experimenting with the one giving the least tracking error end of side may be worthwhile.
My solution is one of the >20 year old parallel trackers so it is a long time since I played with cartridge alignment on a pivoted arm.
My guess would be that you are referring to the Goldmund, which really did (does) sound very fine. The st4 was even a bit of a bargain, and had a good arm. But there are more modern examples which work very well indeed, at least to my ears. Rockport 6000 and 7000 arms pop up for sale once in a while. The Kuzma is excellent,Bergmann offer one, I think even Air Tangent are still around (nicest sounding of the lot for me.) Then there are some diy versions which seem very reasonably priced and probably work just fine.
As always, there are issues, not just differing horizontal and vertical mass but set-up, noisy air pumps, contamination, pulsing, and so on. But every time I hear any of these arms they sound superb. Airy and relaxed without any trace of a 'mechanical' sound. I just adore them, but I couldn't face all the complexity, so I only hear them at the house of friends.
I'd urge anyone who hasn't heard one to make the effort. It's a bit of a treat. IGD is never present. And you will know it.
As always, there are issues, not just differing horizontal and vertical mass but set-up, noisy air pumps, contamination, pulsing, and so on. But every time I hear any of these arms they sound superb. Airy and relaxed without any trace of a 'mechanical' sound. I just adore them, but I couldn't face all the complexity, so I only hear them at the house of friends.
I'd urge anyone who hasn't heard one to make the effort. It's a bit of a treat. IGD is never present. And you will know it.
Yes, mine is a Goldmund T3f.
The problem with most (including the Air Tangent) is the lateral effective mass. The B&O and Technics resolve this quite elegantly but have credibility issues in todays price expectation framework.
The Goldmunds were very expensive (but not expensive for the engineering content and component count IMHO) but nowadays, when precision machining has never been easier, lots of quite mediocre (in terms of engineering IMHO) decks cost an absolute fortune.
Partly tiny manufacturing volume, partly if-its-dearer-it-must-be-better.
Robert
Tapehead
There is still the question of shorter wavelengths on the inner grooves, so even with a parallel tracker you'll get better results with a fine line stylus.