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Inner groove distortion

unit

unit

pfm Member
I'm hearing some inner groove distortion with my turntable setup (customised Lenco L75, Hadcock GH228 and AT95e)? It's especially noticeable on female vocals and guitars. They become a little fuzzy and compressed in the mids with added sibilance. I have it set up as best I can right now using the HFN test record and Hadcock protractor but nothing is helping. Of course none of this is aided by the arm being an utter ar5e to set up.

Can anyone make any suggestions as to whether it might be the arm/setup or I just need a better cartridge?
 
How old is your cartridge? The effects you describe are also symptomatic of the early stages of stylus wear.
 
unit said:
I'm hearing some inner groove distortion with my turntable setup (customised Lenco L75, Hadcock GH228 and AT95e)? It's especially noticeable on female vocals and guitars. They become a little fuzzy and compressed in the mids with added sibilance. I have it set up as best I can right now using the HFN test record and Hadcock protractor but nothing is helping. Of course none of this is aided by the arm being an utter ar5e to set up.

Can anyone make any suggestions as to whether it might be the arm/setup or I just need a better cartridge?
Click to expand...

Sounds like a set up issue.

Have you checked your pivot to spindle distance? That being correct, and you're using the correct Hadcock protractor (they have several for differing length arms), then it sounds like alignment or bias.

The bias can be very hit and miss on Hadcocks (I know, I have the 242). Also worth checking azimuth (using a mirror works best but at the null points, the cantilever should form a dead straight line with the tangential null line).

Out of interest, what null points are you using?
 
I had inner groove distortion on my old LP12/Nima setup and found the azimuth was out quite a bit after getting some setup advice.

I also got some advice a while ago about setup and read up on why the inner grooves distort, less velocity on the inner grooves so less force to wiggle the stylus on higher frequencies (or some similar crap)

I think you can use different protractors to setup for the different types of distortion or what you want:

Baerwald: - The distortion at the beginning, the middle (where it’s high) and the end of the record must be equal.
Loefgren: - Alignment must minimize the distortion across the record.
Stevenson: - Distortion is more important at the end of the record so let’s minimize it by assuming a null point at the end of the record, i.e. at 60.325 mm (IEC standard end of the record).
Click to expand...
 
While setup is important, the AT95E might be the culprit here. It just doesn't work that well with all arms, but on some, it's a gem. In addition to alignment etc. try tracking force of 2,25g. IME AT95E doesn't work at all with low tracking force, and out of the plenty of tables I've tried it on, it only sang with RB301 and Basik+. Maybe Hadcock is a nice match too, but I've no experience on that.
 
When I see threads like these, I thank the living lord that I abandoned LPs. What a bloody faff it all was.

Still, it used to pass a dull afternoon :)

Chris
 
Just re-measured. The pivot to spindle distance is about 1mm out but overhang is adjustable and I've managed to get the alignment correct on several different protractors.

I have the bias set according to Hadcock's vague instructions but I've also tried different settings and none of them get rid of the distortion.

Azimuth is as good as i can get it by eye with a mirror. I may try to set up some kind of mono monitoring situation so that i can adjust azimuth using the HFN record.



Pac1 said:
Sounds like a set up issue.

Have you checked your pivot to spindle distance? That being correct, and you're using the correct Hadcock protractor (they have several for differing length arms), then it sounds like alignment or bias.

The bias can be very hit and miss on Hadcocks (I know, I have the 242). Also worth checking azimuth (using a mirror works best but at the null points, the cantilever should form a dead straight line with the tangential null line).

Out of interest, what null points are you using?
Click to expand...
 
I hear you. Sometimes I'm tempted...

Other times I think, spdif vs optical vs usb; Sync vs async; NOS, filters etc etc would become similarly fafftacular



Mescalito said:
When I see threads like these, I thank the living lord that I abandoned LPs. What a bloody faff it all was.

Still, it used to pass a dull afternoon :)

Chris
Click to expand...
 
Tracking force is about 2.4g

Hepokatti said:
While setup is important, the AT95E might be the culprit here. It just doesn't work that well with all arms, but on some, it's a gem. In addition to alignment etc. try tracking force of 2,25g. IME AT95E doesn't work at all with low tracking force, and out of the plenty of tables I've tried it on, it only sang with RB301 and Basik+. Maybe Hadcock is a nice match too, but I've no experience on that.
Click to expand...
 
Gerald said:
Get rid of the AT95E .
Click to expand...

^^This. Get a cartridge with a decent fine-line or shibata tip, Ortofon 540/II, 2M Bronze or Black, AT 150MLX, Goldring 1042 etc. There is no way I'd ever go back to a basic elliptical or worse conical tip now, and the difference is largely at end of side - a lot of cartridges sound good at start of side, only a few, the ones with the fancy tips, keep it up until the very end.
 
I used to use a variety of cheaper elliptical cartridges and often I would be rechecking the alignment and set up to improve the sound on the inner grooves. But I always felt that the sound would become a little harder more compressed through the inner grooves of the record.

Eventually when I moved to a fine line or micro line stylus I was hearing huge benefits especially tracking the inner grooves. This eliminated any compression I was hearing previously and allowing me to enjoy the music which sounded consistent across all the grooves.

If you like the AT sound then you may like the AT440mla alternatively the Rega Exact offers a different presentation and is the one I am currently using. There are plenty of others to choose from including Ortofon 2M Bronze etc.
 
unit said:
I hear you. Sometimes I'm tempted...

Other times I think, spdif vs optical vs usb; Sync vs async; NOS, filters etc etc would become similarly fafftacular
Click to expand...

Buy a NAS connect it to a wireless router connect your streamer to the router, both by CAT 5 ethernet. Use your tablet or phone to control it all. Router & NAS in my study, DS streamer in lounge with other kit.

Takes about 40, minutes to set up from scratch. Rock solid since April 2008.

Chris
 
Martin D said:
Bit harsh there Chris!
Click to expand...

Not really, Martin. If you enjoy the kit aspect of the hobby, t/ts are fun & can be made to sound v. good. But they & the software that they use (LPs) are high maintenance & easily damaged.

As I got older, the kit aspect annoyed me more & more. Especially the whole vinyl thing. I found myself in an almost constant state of FUD about whether everything was optimum. Not conducive to getting down & boogying:)

I now essentially have 2 bits of kit, neither of which I ever have to touch except to power on or off. And it never goes out of adjustment, never has to have trackin weight, bias, VTA, "bounce" or any of the other things checked. I tap a screen a few times & the track or LP of my choice starts playing. Instantly. If it sounds different or worse, it's in my head & a stiff malt will usually sort that out.:)

And I have my entire collection of 250,000 tracks at my fingertips.

So enjoy your t/t's & all that goes with them. I do know where you are coming from.

Chris
 
Tony L said:
^^This. Get a cartridge with a decent fine-line or shibata tip, Ortofon 540/II, 2M Bronze or Black, AT 150MLX, Goldring 1042 etc. There is no way I'd ever go back to a basic elliptical or worse conical tip now, and the difference is largely at end of side - a lot of cartridges sound good at start of side, only a few, the ones with the fancy tips, keep it up until the very end.
Click to expand...

This is a very relevant point, however I have the 2M Red set up on one of my current test-bed decks with a light mass arm just to try it and it tracks all 4 bands of the HFN test LP no problems at all with its elliptical stylus. You don't need the fine line Shibata to achieve this, but it is true that it's the better stylus profile and by quite a margin.
 
Pac1 said:
This is a very relevant point, however I have the 2M Red set up on one of my current test-bed decks with a light mass arm just to try it and it tracks all 4 bands of the HFN test LP no problems at all with its elliptical stylus. You don't need the fine line Shibata to achieve this, but it is true that it's the better stylus profile and by quite a margin.
Click to expand...

Tracking and tracing are very different things, and end of side distortion is a tracing issue. Toward the end of the record the groove modulations inevitably become smaller and tighter and elliptical styli gradually start to lose contact to some (audible) degree as they are simply too wide to accurately trace the groove. It's like trying to get a square peg into a round hole. It just doesn't fit properly!
 
I read the difference that the stylus shape makes on inner grooves is very small though.

The AT440ml seems to keep popping when googling inner groove distortion as a good solution.
 
Don't overlook the build up of fluff and crud on the stylus towards the end of the side: many a time have I cleaned it in between tracks and got better sq on the last tracks.
 
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