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Improving Vinyl sound - your experiences

dadgad

dadgad

pfm Member
Happy New Year to all!
Here's something I hope you can all help me with as I contemplate 2016 purchases.

I have a good vinyl sound coming from my system at present - its an 80's LP12 with an '84 Ittok. Its currently at Cirkus spec with a Lingo 3 and was professionally set up last year. It has a Linn Klyde cartridge which feeds the MC board of my vintage Meridian 101 pre-amp. The set-up and the Lingo made everything faster, with cleaner and deeper bass, and more detail on vocals and strings.

The deck is well sorted and sounds good, but I probably will need a new cartridge at some point - its quite old although lightly used. Being very critical, there is a slight harshness on some vocal tracks on loud crescendos in rock and large scale classical - perhaps tracking limitations? Some people would say I should get a newer tone-arm (an Ekos or a PU7), while others might suggest a new sub-chassis or a dedicated MC phono stage.

So I wonder what I might get from any of these changes, and what to listen for. What could I hear from
a) a better/newer cartridge
b) a better arm
c) a new sub-chassis
d) a phono stage

I'm less interested in recommendations - 'You must buy an XXX arm, it totally trashes the Ittok'. I'm more interested in what you heard - 'when I put a new phono stage I found the sound stage widened and female voices became much more natural'

Rest of system is Meridian 506 CDP, Benchmark DAC2 HGC, Meridian 101/103D (serviced last year), ART Neo 8 speakers, in a large 25' x 15' x 13' room.
 
Look at the loading of the phono stage first. You get so many 'it was such a day & night difference' about changes of phono stage, when often it's merely the internal loading is better suited to the cartridge, or creating a change that appeals to the listener. I'd get a circuit diagram of your 101 pre-amp to see what the stock loading is first. Then if you still don't feel you're getting what you like, look into other stages.
 
I personally would add a RCM to your list and I would place it at the top of that list. It would surprise you at how good your system can play music. I am of course assuming you haven't got one.

Colin
 
CB4 said:
I personally would add a RCM to your list and I would place it at the top of that list. It would surprise you at how good your system can play music. I am of course assuming you haven't got one.

Colin
Click to expand...

Sorry, not familiar with the TLA!? RCM?
 
quad2fan said:
Look at the loading of the phono stage first. You get so many 'it was such a day & night difference' about changes of phono stage, when often it's merely the internal loading is better suited to the cartridge, or creating a change that appeals to the listener. I'd get a circuit diagram of your 101 pre-amp to see what the stock loading is first. Then if you still don't feel you're getting what you like, look into other stages.
Click to expand...

I have a circuit diagram of the Meridian IMCOS module somewhere so I'll dig it out. Does anyone have the electronics 'nous' to read the diagram and tell me what it implies for impedance?
 
The biggest improvement to all round SQ that I've discovered is to replace all my old re issued and remastered LP's with 1st pressings!
 
I find that cartridges are like loudspeakers and can make a massive difference once your deck and arm are upto it, which they are.

Try an akiva on it.
 
You mention that there's distortion on some louder/vocal passages, and I think that's the area you need to check out first. You may have had a check-up fairly recently, but how clean and unworn is your stylus?

With the very low output (0.15 mV) of the Klyde, I can't imagine it's a problem of overloading the ph/stage. Maybe arm bearings? Bias wrong? VTF (playing weight) wrong (should be slightly under 1.75g)? Quite possibly a gunked up stylus or a worn one. Maybe set-up geometry was sloppily applied.

If other sources sound good to you, concentrate on the arm and cart. Pointless to change other things until you sort out the reason for your vinyl dissatisfaction. Assuming your lack of DIY set-up knowledge (assumed from getting others to 'check it out'), a local pink fisher (or Wammer if you belong to that forum) who knows what to do and has a protractor may be able to help.
 
hp1 said:
I find that cartridges are like loudspeakers and can make a massive difference once your deck and arm are upto it, which they are.

Try an akiva on it.
Click to expand...

OK, that sounds positive, but define 'massive difference' - what kinds of improvement might I expect?
Thanks!
 
Annoyingly, the old truth that you have to try things for yourself is still true. This hobby is so crowded with 'opinions' that only personal experience will help. Even if one person says 'I heard X why I tried Y'' it doesn't follow that your reaction would be similar.
I know that sounds unhelpful, but it is the truth. However, for what little it is worth, I'd stick to what you have for now and change cartridge, if only to avoid record damage. Try to listen to other people's systems in the long term, slowly build-up your own experience. That's what you can trust.
 
Mike Reed said:
You mention that there's distortion on some louder/vocal passages, and I think that's the area you need to check out first. You may have had a check-up fairly recently, but how clean and unworn is your stylus?

With the very low output (0.15 mV) of the Klyde, I can't imagine it's a problem of overloading the ph/stage. Maybe arm bearings? Bias wrong? VTF (playing weight) wrong (should be slightly under 1.75g)? Quite possibly a gunked up stylus or a worn one. Maybe set-up geometry was sloppily applied.

If other sources sound good to you, concentrate on the arm and cart. Pointless to change other things until you sort out the reason for your vinyl dissatisfaction. Assuming your lack of DIY set-up knowledge (assumed from getting others to 'check it out'), a local pink fisher (or Wammer if you belong to that forum) who knows what to do and has a protractor may be able to help.
Click to expand...

I would agree with the above. The correct alignment of good condition (i.e. unworn and clean) stylus can make a huge difference. From my time with an LP12+Ittok+Troika you should not really be hearing distortion.

Once that is sorted (which might mean a new cartridge) I would get a record cleaning machine since they also help reduce distortion as well as Rice Krispie effects.
Then I would investigate phono-stages if I had the cash... in my experience good ones tend to cost...
Cymbiosis in Leicester (if ever that is local) used to carry quite a lot of different versions of the LP12 with various subchassis and arm combinations if you want to go down that route. Personally I considered it more cost effective to sell the LP12 and get an SME20 rather than go for the Keel+Ekos+power supply upgrades.
 
I've changed turntables, phono stages, arms and cartridges gradually and swapped these in and out. All have made a difference. The cheapest thing that worked well was a good wall shelf.

Practically, the easiest thing to try is probably swapping a phono stage. It generally isn't hard to get someone to bring one round and just see what difference that makes. I had a p75 which was good, a Whest 30r was much better, and my current Tron 7 much better again. That is, in terms of detail, clarity and sound staging.

More tricky to swap a cartridge unless you just wanted to try buying one and seeing what like. Again my experience generally has been more expensive carts do produce better results accepting the law of diminishing returns and the limitations of the system around them.

If you could get a Linn expert to check set up for a few hundred quid then that could potentially be a bargain.

Best of luck

Andy
 
Ah the record player obsession. I just got my Roksan Xerxes out from boxed storage. I set it up my self sorted out the droop, seems to sound pretty good, my gear is not the best but good and THATS IT - no more playing around nonsense that record player ownership atttacts?
 
The other thought is that this turntable is worth, at best c 1.0 to 1.5k with the wind behind it. You could sell it and put any 'upgrade' money into something modern SH and stop throwing good money after bad. Me I'd keep it tidy, stick a modest new cartridge on it and pre order the new Technics SL1200.
 
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