Illusions - what do we really see

[Whaleblue]

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It's premised that in this type of holistic listening we use patterns & statistical analysis. For instance, if listening to the sound of applause, it's a wash of sound we hear, not any particular element although some elements pop out into our awareness, at times. Now listen to the sound of rain on a tin roof & we can usually differentiate this sound from applause. Both consist of a mix of random frequencies with random timing & are changing all the time but they have different statistical frequency distributions.

It’s not, I’d suggest, primarily the different statistical frequency distributions, but the different overtones that allow us to distinguish such things.

Just as we can descern a violin from a piano if they play the exact same tune.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

It’s not, I’d suggest, primarily the different statistical frequency distributions, but the different overtones that allow us to distinguish such things.

Just as we can descern a violin from a piano if they play the exact same tune.

I don't believe so - sound of applause & rain on a roof, crackling fire, etc are a different category of sound very like pinknoise - the term 'sound textures' is applied to this category, I believe - which is where the statistical method of auditory processing was first identified

There really aren't any fundamental frequencies with overtones

Research has been done into this category of sound & it is thought to form one of the methods we use for listening to most sounds "summary statistics" - see the second link
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896627311005629
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4143328/

Summary statistics are accepted as one of the techniques we use in visual perception (insofar as anything is final in scientific research)

 

[Buntobox]

There isn't a sound engineer or mixer who at some point hasn't....Spent 5 -10 minutes fiddling with say the Bass Guitar sound, trying all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff thinking..."Hmmmm that's better" only to realise that, they were actually fiddling with the wrong channel and you have done 0 to the root of chuff all to the actual sound or level of the Bass.

I did it once with an annoying producer who wanted something in the mix that he couldn't define. I twiddled some knobs on a channel I knew wasn't connected to a thing, said, "how's that sounding now?", and he left the control room as happy as Larry.

 

[Lee T]

There are many objective v subjective debates relating to the audio world which I have followed over the last few years, many have turned on the premise that the mind influences significantly that which we hear.
FWIW here is a link to an annual world wide competition the that asks you to vote for the best visual illusion of the year http://illusionoftheyear.com/ Voting closes tonight 5th Oct at 9pm
Declaring an interest - a friend has entered 'Windmills of the Mind' which is science based.
The question, I think. If our minds can be fooled visually - assuming that you agree that they are, can we similarly be misled by clever marketing in Audio; bear in mind that applications of the illusion competition are used in marketing?

The brain can be fooled to a point but also depends heavily on the individuals ability to concentrate, not all respond eqqually to visual or sound stimuli, therefore there is no concrete answer.

It's easy to differentiate sounds, listen blind, this sorts the wheat from the chaff, visual differences are much more difficult for obvious reasons.

Marketing is just that & down to the individuals ability to see through the nonsense. It's a separate thing altogether from sound & visual stimuli, we can be influenced but again, each will respond differently.

As an example, does anyone here own an old cheapo all in one that cost around £50 & attempt to fool themselves it's a high end set up, if we could imagine anything then why spend thousands on hifi, why not buy a cheapo set up & "believe" it's the high end, it's not so clean cut as just believing something, we don't always hear what we want to hear, as some here will have you believe.

 

[Anh]

What timing, I just played a track on the Mu-so streamed from my laptop, and kept my LP12 switched on.

Did the music sound more 'analogue' as a result of me seeing a spinning vinyl disc?

 

[westsea]

The brain can be fooled to a point............

As an example, does anyone here own an old cheapo all in one that cost around £50 & attempt to fool themselves it's a high end set up, if we could imagine anything then why spend thousands on hifi, why not buy a cheapo set up & "believe" it's the high end, it's not so clean cut as just believing something, we don't always hear what we want to hear, as some here will have you believe.

I think you miss the point, illusions are not a question of belief, they are a deliberate intention to decieve, and convice the mind it is seeing a something that isn't 'true' Our belief systems result partly from past experience, tempered by a rational knowledge. A sense of value helps, in most of the debates the protagonists seem to take extreme positions, which is OK if all you want is an argument or debate.
However if the idea is to resolve problems then a more coperative approach is needed, which, to be fair is frequently the case on PFM

 

[Lee T]

I think you miss the point, illusions are not a question of belief, they are a deliberate intention to decieve, and convice the mind it is seeing a something that isn't 'true'

How does this relate to hifi, as mentioned in the op.

I suppose it would be a good idea to show an example of where marketing & visual illusion are combined in the hifi world.