kristoffer
Danish Hi Fi NERD
I was just wondering. How long can you run a phono cable without losing sound quality?
10 meters?
10 meters?
How long can you run cables with losing SQ?
- Thread starter kristoffer
- Start date
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
Depends on the output impedance of the device involved, the quality of the cable and the environment (noise wise) you are running it in. I run a ten or so metre length of cheap RS twin coax from a Pure Evoke portable DAB radio into my main system and the quality is much better than I expected the radio to be capable of.
kristoffer
Danish Hi Fi NERD
I was just thinking about moving my Rega RP3 a bit further away. I use Blue Jeans Cables from turntable to riaa.
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
If you mean extending the cables from the turntable to the phono preamp, not a good idea, better to have the cables from the phono to the main amp longer.
It depends on the source output impedance & the cable capacitance as per Barrymagrec.
You can go to surprisingly long lengths & 10m will be perfectly OK with a solid state source & unless you have valve equipment with very high output impedance used together with high cable capacitance there should be no audible attenuation.
A solid state CD player or tuner output impedance is typically between 10ohm and 100ohms. Valve equipment outputs can be much higher from 500ohm, 1kohm even up to 10kohm and these can be a problem with long high C cables.
BUT there is a theory that long cables do sound less detailed than short ones. While its indisputable that capacitance causes attenuation as frequency rises; the fine detail within the complex audio signal appears to be far more affected than capacitance attenuated signal. We may not be talking 1m to 2m, but at 10m or longer it is a viable question. Maybe the its dielectric properties coming into play, maybe its smearing, who knows. It might be one of those cable sound variations we all get excited about in the endless cable arguments. - do I hear the cable monster stirring ??
You can go to surprisingly long lengths & 10m will be perfectly OK with a solid state source & unless you have valve equipment with very high output impedance used together with high cable capacitance there should be no audible attenuation.
A solid state CD player or tuner output impedance is typically between 10ohm and 100ohms. Valve equipment outputs can be much higher from 500ohm, 1kohm even up to 10kohm and these can be a problem with long high C cables.
BUT there is a theory that long cables do sound less detailed than short ones. While its indisputable that capacitance causes attenuation as frequency rises; the fine detail within the complex audio signal appears to be far more affected than capacitance attenuated signal. We may not be talking 1m to 2m, but at 10m or longer it is a viable question. Maybe the its dielectric properties coming into play, maybe its smearing, who knows. It might be one of those cable sound variations we all get excited about in the endless cable arguments. - do I hear the cable monster stirring ??
Mike Reed
pfm Member
By phono cables, you either mean from the arm or from the phono stage. If the former, and it's a l.o. moving coil cart., the shorter the better.
If a mag. or h.o. m/c cart., you're pushing out nearly ten times the voltage, but I would still keep cables short.
If from a phono stage, it's more or less at line level (+-2V), so a few metres (not METERS in Europe) shouldn't make a too much difference, assuming a decent interconnect.
If a mag. or h.o. m/c cart., you're pushing out nearly ten times the voltage, but I would still keep cables short.
If from a phono stage, it's more or less at line level (+-2V), so a few metres (not METERS in Europe) shouldn't make a too much difference, assuming a decent interconnect.
Mike Reed (with respect)
A phono cable is commonly understood in many circles to be an IC with RCA connectors
Line attenuation has nothing to do with voltage.
Voltage will only come into the eq if current & resistance is an issue - which it is not with a cart or line level source.
Agreed however "the shorter the better"
A phono cable is commonly understood in many circles to be an IC with RCA connectors
Line attenuation has nothing to do with voltage.
Voltage will only come into the eq if current & resistance is an issue - which it is not with a cart or line level source.
Agreed however "the shorter the better"
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Well, I never knew that ! Wonder how 'phono' became equated with any RCA-terminated i/c; if otherwise terminated, it's no long a phono cable?
Thanks anyway; so much for 45 years of hifi ownership !
This question is very relevant for me at the moment as I'm tying to decide whether I will benefit from moving my monoblocks off my rack (directly beneath my Avondale Grad 1 pre-amp) to the floor next to each of my electrostatic speakers (Kingsound King). The speakers have binding posts at floor level so I can use very short speaker cable, eg TQ ultra black links, at a reasonable price. I would need about 3 - 3.5 metres of RCA-RCA interconnect.
I have compared 1m vs 4.2m Linn Blacks and just swapping them I couldn't tell the difference. However, I lived with 4.2m for a couple of months and then going back to 1m on extended listening I do hear some increase in dynamics and energy. Not huge but definitely a difference. I've not yet tested what kind of advantage I will get with shorter speaker cables. This has been complicated by arguments that 20 cm of high end cable such as the TQ ultra black will not be enough for it to show its qualities. A minefield of questions!
Mark
I have compared 1m vs 4.2m Linn Blacks and just swapping them I couldn't tell the difference. However, I lived with 4.2m for a couple of months and then going back to 1m on extended listening I do hear some increase in dynamics and energy. Not huge but definitely a difference. I've not yet tested what kind of advantage I will get with shorter speaker cables. This has been complicated by arguments that 20 cm of high end cable such as the TQ ultra black will not be enough for it to show its qualities. A minefield of questions!
Mark
I have a 3-way active setup and my custom-made amp cases sit right behind each speaker (each case contains 3 monoblocks & an active XO).
As any length of speaker cable can only degrade the signal (not "improve" it), the shorter the better IMO ... my speaker cables are, max, 1 ft.
Yes, the down side of putting the amps behind the speakers is that you have to use longer-than-normal RCAs ... but, as long as you:
* have a preamp with an output stage capable of driving long ICs (some can't)
* use low-C cable, and
* have a nice high ratio of power amp Zin to preamp Zout, longer-than-normal ICs will not degrade the sound. In my previous house, due to the design of my listening space, I was using 35' ICs between pre and active XO ... but the ZXin/Zout ratio was about 100 (and I used low-C cable) - so I had absolutely no sonic problems.
This is marketing BS, IMO ("showing its qualities").
The best thing a speaker cable can do is not show any qualities - and the shorter it is, the more it will do this. Regards,
Andy
If you belong to that circle ... you obviously move in very different circles to me
(and Mike Reed).AFAIAC, a "phono cable" has a DIN plug on one end - to plug into an arm.
Regards,
Andy
glancaster
In the silicon vale
I think the term "phono cable" is somewhat ambiguous. In a sense you are all right, because it can be any of the things you describe, but you are also all wrong, because your definitions are too narrow. All IMHO.
Anyway, the OP has clarified what he meant, in post #4.
Anyway, the OP has clarified what he meant, in post #4.
Thank you for the detailed reply, Andy.
Does anyone else have any experience of trying this?
The length of cable seen by the signal from source to speakers is the same either way. It comes down to whether the system will sound best with the majority of this length being interconnect or speaker cable.
Mark
Does anyone else have any experience of trying this?
The length of cable seen by the signal from source to speakers is the same either way. It comes down to whether the system will sound best with the majority of this length being interconnect or speaker cable.
Mark
You are correct, TD ... but also too simplistic.
If we take the "total length" of cable from an arm to the speakers as having 3 components:
1. The phono cable from arm to phono stage - which carries a minute signal (even if the owner is using a HOMM).
2. The IC from preamp to power amp - which, typically, carries a signal of 300-800mV, and
3. The speaker cables - which carry signals of 10s of volts.
... then, sure, you can change the relative lengths of nos. 1 - 3 and still keep the total length the same ... but I suggest that a 3 or 4m phono cable (instead of the customary length of 1-1.2m) will degrade your sound.
Regards,
Andy
Oh ok, I'm getting confused. I thought the OP meant RCA-RCA interconnect which is why I thought my question was re-iterating along the same lines.
But having re-read the thread, I see the relevance of your point, even though it doesn't apply to me. My system does not include a phonograph (or any mechanical descendent thereof)
Mark
But having re-read the thread, I see the relevance of your point, even though it doesn't apply to me. My system does not include a phonograph (or any mechanical descendent thereof)
Mark