How important is detail in a system?

[Rodney gold]

Some folk like their steaks rare and mooing and some like it charred , it's really their own taste they have to please. SteveS1 is right , get a good eq and you can tune to taste...

 

[realmassy]

Some folk like their steaks rare and mooing and some like it charred , it's really their own taste they have to please. SteveS1 is right , get a good eq and you can tune to taste...

An EQ will change the frequency response, which is not what cause a system to be fatiguing. The ears can easily adapt to a 1 or 2 db in a frequency range, but will stil notice if there's something wrong in the way instruments are reproduced.
And that can not be fixed with an EQ, IMHO.

 

[Yank]

My question asks why judge a recording any differently than you would a live performance as both are intended to deliver the same message.

I've never heard anyone but audiophiles describe a musical performance in terms of sound artifacts as if one of those artifacts has anything to do with what provides enjoyment when hearing live music (typically our reference since birth.) We don't think in terms of bass, treble, imaging or dynamics when we hear music live - we simply enjoy or don't enjoy the event. It just seems a bit odd to me to use different criteria for judging the difference between live vs the same event recorded. The recording should be judged based on the same standards as the live event which, IMO, is pleasure (how it made us feel.)

Simplistic perhaps but maybe we (audiophiles) are over thinking it.

I think these artifacts are just an indication of how poorly music reproduction compares to the real thing.

 

[Darth Vader]

It depends on what we mean with 'detail'. Are we talking about hearing the players turning the sheet music pages or someone coughing in a live recording?
In that case no, i don't care about detail.

But if we mean accurate reproduction of acoustic instruments, then yes, i absolutely love detail.
Take an example of my favourite type of composition, the string quartet. You go to a concert and you can clearly hear all the subtle details, the different voices in a fugue or distinguish the second violin from the first. To me these are details (we can argue that seeing the players helps, though)
Then we listen to a quartet at home and we even struggle to distinguish the viola from the cello or the violin. If a system can't reproduce these details then it clearly fails in doing his job, IMO.

Someone mentioned a 'detailed' system tends to be fatiguing. Not in my opinion and experience. A innatural system will be fatiguing, a system that lacks of timbre accuracy is fatiguing, a system with an innatural decay of the notes (too fast or too slow) will be fatiguing. Hearing a flat violin, where you can only hear the fundamentals but not the harmonics, is fatiguing because it doesn't sound anything like a real one and our brain knows it.

Not in a good system. Although I can't do a real A/B with my eyes closed its as good as a seat at a live venue.

Took many years to get there and I never thought it possible but it is - at a price.

Cheers,

DV

 

[realmassy]

^ agree, that was my whole point! English is my second language and probably i couldn't explain.
In a bad system (lacking detail) the viola simply 'melts' with the violins and the cello, and we can't hear its natural nasal timbre.
Definitely a good system will show a good timbre accuracy and will be able to resolve the inner details of the recording. I'm quite happy with the way mine does this, it definitely sounds accurate and detailed but it took some time and some money

 

[AndyU]

Take an example of my favourite type of composition, the string quartet. You go to a concert and you can clearly hear all the subtle details, the different voices in a fugue or distinguish the second violin from the first. To me these are details (we can argue that seeing the players helps, though)
Then we listen to a quartet at home and we even struggle to distinguish the viola from the cello or the violin. If a system can't reproduce these details then it clearly fails in doing his job, IMO.

No struggling needed on my system. It absolutely excels at chamber music. Distinguishing a cello from a violin is not a "detail", it is absolutely massively important - a huge difference.

 

[John]

My theory is that the searing modern 'hyper-detail' thing is down to much high-end kit being designed based on a series of entirely subjective A B dems / tests, and with an aim to stand out in this audition environment. So many times I've seen folk in dealer dems pick the brighter and more exaggerated presentation uttering phrases relating to detail, leading edge, tightness, clarity etc. The better kit of old always sought to simply reproduce that which went into it and was expected to prove it's credentials with a flat measured response, low distortion etc. Ok, much of the problem is down to the march ever towards smaller and more LF-compromised speakers, but I'm sure much kit is now deliberately designed to sound 'impressive' in quick AB dems rather than to sound natural and non-fatiguing over the long-term. It's a substantial reason as to why I live in the world of vintage kit, it's just more balanced and natural sounding to my ears.

Who does A/B dems? A very select number of Linn dealers were the only ones I know of that performed meaningful demos. Most of the differences I heard in such dems had more to do with the music making more sense. More a quality over quantity thing for me.

 

[PhilCTTE]

Funny you should say that. We have a fabulous local Theatre complex in Malvern with two approx 800 seater venues. One is a hall which can be with or without tiered seating, and the other a classic Victorian theatre with excellent acoustics. They have been putting on a lot more live music and Sue and I have been going to many concerts / gigs as well as many HD broadcasts. They are fantastic, but as you say, not very detailed.

Nic P

I remember the heady days of concerts in the winter gardens Malvern.
Gigs at the lamb.
Not even been on my radar.
Mainly Marrs bar and Huntingdon hall, sometimes Keystones and Drummonds.

*** edit , I notice our music tastes differ

 

[tonerei]

Sometimes I find having tweaked a system to get it to be very revealing in detail means a lot of my favourite music can end up sounding too harsh. For me the constant battle is to try and strike a balance between getting the detail but retaining warmth or harmonic richness. Problem is trying to get the two together in harmony is very difficult.Well it is for me anyhow

 

[nirvanah]

I was musing about the expensive mistakes I have made in my hi-fi journey. It occurred to me that many were prompted by me thinking for decades that the pursuit of more detail in the reproduction was my main objective. All my years going up the Naim upgrade chain yielded masses more detail but increasing dissatisfaction as I ceased to concentrate on music rather than hi-fi. My current system doesn't lack detail, but I am happy to "just" listen to loads of music. I often feel that the musicians are there playing just for me, or that I am actually at a concert.

Nic P

I agree with you totally Nic and found that with each upgrade i found i was going through my music collection listening for those little extras and those things i had not heard before. The ironic thing with Naim is that it actually masks quite a bit of subtle detail and nuances with that leading edge it has, almost drowning things out with the foot tapping prat thing.
I now have some Avondale 821a cards installed and am much happier than i have been for ages with a music presentation that i can listen to rather than analyse. To be fair the NJ boards that i had before also made me smile but i feel my listening needs have clearly changed.

Ian

 

[Rodney gold]

Just whack up the 3-7khz region by 6db with an eq , you will get detail in spades , you will even hear stuff that ISN'T on the recording..

Seriously tho , some tone control actually does help various recordings to become more enjoyable , especially if you have room/speaker/matching electronics issues.

One of the big problems we all face is listening level where the amount of detail changes

At higher levels , where the ear is more linear , you hear more "detail" , at lower levels where the ear is far less sensitive to treble and bass , the sound loses detail , also a lot of detail gets occluded by ambient noise at low levels.

I am careful not to have a hyper detailed system cos I tend to listen loud - or at the very least , lifelike levels.

 

[merlin]

Just whack up the 3-7khz region by 6db with an eq , you will get detail in spades , you will even hear stuff that ISN'T on the recording..

Seriously tho , some tone control actually does help various recordings to become more enjoyable , especially if you have room/speaker/matching electronics issues.

One of the big problems we all face is listening level where the amount of detail changes

At higher levels , where the ear is more linear , you hear more "detail" , at lower levels where the ear is far less sensitive to treble and bass , the sound loses detail , also a lot of detail gets occluded by ambient noise at low levels.

I am careful not to have a hyper detailed system cos I tend to listen loud - or at the very least , lifelike levels.

I think the old issue of audio terminology rears it's ugly head once more.

What seems to be being mentioned, in part gest of course, by some posters, is for me a "forward" sounding system, not a detailed one per se.

For me truly detailed systems are often remarkably subtle. They don't push information at the listener, it simply exists in the mix, just as it would have when the engineer created the two channel master.

My goal is to find a system that presents the vast majority of that information to me at sub 80db listening levels. A really good system will do that IME. Quads can do it. Headphones can do it. If someone were to suggest that Quads and quality cans were somehow "unmusical" I would probably be forced to take issue with them.

A good sound engineer plays with each individual track in both the frequency and time domain in order to give it some individuality once the multi track is mixed down to the two channel master. To preserve that work is not "unmusical" IMHO.

If it were, then great engineers such as George Martin, Hugh Padgham, Quincy Jones and others are also lacking in feel for musical performance.

A forward sounding system will, having an uneven frequency response, bring instruments forward that have been carefully EQ'ed by the engineer to sit further back in the mix. That could well be unmusical and will rarely be satisfying in the long term. But for me, that's not a detailed system. It's a system that simply presents some of the detail with undue prominence.

 

[Darmok]

Hmmm, as a Hi-Fi enthusiast and a retired live music venue sound engineer I am a bit reluctant to enter these sort of discussions.

What most domestic listeners miss is the volume v compression issue.of reproducing music at high levels.

If you are blessed with a large high ceiling listening room (as I was before losing a legal battle) you have very little to worry about.

In a small listening room with a low ceiling, as you increase the volume you also increase the compression of the air within that room.

Remember holding a bicycle pump and putting your thumb over the blow hole and pumping compressing the air, well that is the effect in a small room.

It is the low frequency that is held back where as the high frequencies carry on unabated.

At a live show, the body count has a profound effect on the sound, the sound checks we do in the afternoon preceding the live event bears no resemblance to the sound with same settings once the audience has filled the venue.

Another factor is choice of microphone used for vocal reproduction and the way the drum kit is miked up.

The above topic is much better explained on pro audio discussion groups so I will bow out and suggest further reading elseware, eg "Steve Hoffmans Forum" and others.

OTOH,You might enjoy reading this. > http://robertmusic.blogspot.co.uk/2009/04/insanity-of-steve-hoffman-forum.html

Cheers and good listening!