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How far have DACs moved on?

From an Information Theory POV 'dither' is expected to be 'randomised'. However a systematic form of dither has been tried in the past. e.g. the first NICAM ADCs that the BBC designed and used applied a half-LSB step up/down between alternating samples.

But so far as human perception is concerned, just-inaudible noises like hum, rumble, etc, might do something similar by affecting the hearing process. This is just conjecture though.

I think that background noise like you get with vinyl playback can help mask deficiencies elsewhere in the system that can become more taxing with say CD.
The same can perhaps be happening with harmonic and intermodulation distortion and channel bleeding.

But in a very transparent system my experience leads me to believe that noise detracts from realism. This can be subject to testing by comparing recordings from the early 60s with contemporary ones.
 
Well if you do something technically badly, so much so that it ends up being audible, adding signals and distortion that simply isn't in the recording, then you are contradicting the definition of hifi.

I'm not sure many accept the idea that audio reproduction equipment should deliberately distort the sound, but hey I'm sure some will like an effects box and that is indeed their perogative.

I'd agree that the vital distinction here wrt NOS is if the system then has an 'adequate' a following low-pass filter or not. (Here 'adequate' means it will suppress all out-of-band components and form the reconstruction filter.)

As with MQA (sigh) the effect of NOS with *no* following filter (or an 'inadequate' one in the above terms) means output of a lot of anharmonic HF that wasn't in the original recording. Thus it represents changes, not faithfulness to the recorded and digitised waveforms.

On one level that may be liked or not. But note that it will depend on how following equipment reacts. So a following amp, or speakers, say, might then generate its own added intermodulation distortion products. Some of which might end up down in the 'baseband' and thus be rather more audible. Which complicates and increases the above - a tendency to generate stuff that wasn't in the source.

The old 'Legato Link' tended to do this. But regardless of the above, I tended to be happy with it from my old Audio CD recorders. Mind you, the kit I followed the DAC with in those cases was usually unlikely to fold much of the HF back down into a more audible range.
 
I think that background noise like you get with vinyl playback can help mask deficiencies elsewhere in the system that can become more taxing with say CD.
The same can perhaps be happening with harmonic and intermodulation distortion and channel bleeding.

But in a very transparent system my experience leads me to believe that noise detracts from realism. This can be subject to testing by comparing recordings from the early 60s with contemporary ones.

Again, I think this tends to depend on the details of the case. All else being equal, I'd tend to want minimal and inaudible noise levels. But despite that when you listen to something like a Prom concert, the 'hall noises' are a part of 'being there'. And one of the most favoured halls used in past decades for recordings was famed for the tube line that ran under it. :)
 
Ah, “effects box”, a copy and paste of Keith’s favourite insult. You two are becoming quite a double act!
Try a technical rebuttal, you will get much further with that. So your view is that audio components should distort the signal. OK.
 
Again, I think this tends to depend on the details of the case. All else being equal, I'd tend to want minimal and inaudible noise levels. But despite that when you listen to something like a Prom concert, the 'hall noises' are a part of 'being there'. And one of the most favoured halls used in past decades for recordings was famed for the tube line that ran under it. :)
Sorry I should have made it clearer that I was referring to tape hiss not audience noise
 
Quite so and this is, when all is said and done, a discussion forum.

Whether some salesmen and their manufacturers like it or not, the music reproduction system is a mix of objective and subjective. How we subjectively perceive music is a combination of the actual sound and how our brain interprets it. The psychology of how we enjoy our music is at least as important as the actual sound that comes out of the equipment.

Im entirely fine with subjective assessment too. Just see how flawed it is without controls. The work of Toole, to which I refer regularly, is subjective. The very first thing they concluded was how much people are influenced and biased.

If you like a piece of kit because its brand makes you feel psychologically better thats absolutely fine, but its clearly not an assessment of equipment performance, thats an assessment of you.
 
I'd agree that the vital distinction here wrt NOS is if the system then has an 'adequate' a following low-pass filter or not. (Here 'adequate' means it will suppress all out-of-band components and form the reconstruction filter.)

As with MQA (sigh) the effect of NOS with *no* following filter (or an 'inadequate' one in the above terms) means output of a lot of anharmonic HF that wasn't in the original recording. Thus it represents changes, not faithfulness to the recorded and digitised waveforms.

On one level that may be liked or not. But note that it will depend on how following equipment reacts. So a following amp, or speakers, say, might then generate its own added intermodulation distortion products. Some of which might end up down in the 'baseband' and thus be rather more audible. Which complicates and increases the above - a tendency to generate stuff that wasn't in the source.

The old 'Legato Link' tended to do this. But regardless of the above, I tended to be happy with it from my old Audio CD recorders. Mind you, the kit I followed the DAC with in those cases was usually unlikely to fold much of the HF back down into a more audible range.

Absolutely. Hence my mention of the following amplifier. It becomes a lottery with variable and unpredictable performance. The point being that if someone deems adding distortion is acceptable, then essentially "anything" goes. Fidelity goes out the window and personal opinion rules. Well that pretty much knocks this forum on the head as it turns into "I like strawberry" v "I like raspberry". Totally pointless.

Oh MQA, total con job. An exercise in raising licensing revenue.
 
Again, I think this tends to depend on the details of the case. All else being equal, I'd tend to want minimal and inaudible noise levels. But despite that when you listen to something like a Prom concert, the 'hall noises' are a part of 'being there'. And one of the most favoured halls used in past decades for recordings was famed for the tube line that ran under it. :)
The hall sounds are not really "noise" though, they are part of the desired recorded sound. IM from a NOS dac for example is not part of the desired recorded sound.
 
I like my fish-shaped effects box. Sounds awesome.

Joe
 
Clive,

Technically, my effects box is cartilaginous fish-shaped, so it’s flesh on the cartilage. It has no bones.

I’m sure it measures poorly — it’s not even a rectangle, something that’s easy to measure — but it sounds great.

Joe
 
Clive,

Technically, my effects box is cartilaginous fish-shaped, so it’s flesh on the cartilage. It has no bones.

I’m sure it measures poorly — it’s not even a rectangle, something that’s easy to measure — but it sounds great.

Joe
Is it by any chance from the Chondrichthyes class of fish?
 
Try a technical rebuttal, you will get much further with that. So your view is that audio components should distort the signal. OK.
I don’t think I said that! As near neutral, to my way of thinking, is a good place to start but if deviance from that makes it sound more like the original than so be it.

Of course, the concert hall and our listening room is usually so different that obsessing about technical accuracy isn’t really that important - unless of course you are a manufacturer or dealer abusing a discussion to try and sell your particular style of product. In essence, I want my hifi to give me the the most convincing illusion of the original performance (I listen to classical most of the time). Why would any sane music lover want anything else?

My objection is when people with a manufacturing or selling agenda start trying to demean their opposition with silly insults. You did understand that, didn’t you? No, didn’t think so!
 
Absolutely. Hence my mention of the following amplifier. It becomes a lottery with variable and unpredictable performance. The point being that if someone deems adding distortion is acceptable, then essentially "anything" goes. Fidelity goes out the window and personal opinion rules. Well that pretty much knocks this forum on the head as it turns into "I like strawberry" v "I like raspberry". Totally pointless.

Oh MQA, total con job. An exercise in raising licensing revenue.
So, this forum is totally pointless then. Just a suggestion, you might feel more at home on forum that rates your DAC highly!

Re your statement on MQA, does living on the other side of the world protect you from libel?
 
It's not long since that we had the cyclical debate about high fidelity & accuracy; as you suggest @camverton room issues trump any tiny deviation from total accuracy.

No piece of equipment will be totally accurate - so it becomes a question of degrees of accuracy - and rather fatuous. There are lots of parameters and distortion types but what's high fidelity eg 0.1% distortion, 0.01%, 0.001%, 0.0001%, 0.00001%? Don't get me wrong, aiming at accuracy is fine as a starting point but audio equipment is to be enjoyed, not measured so the final instantiation of a piece of kit (or room) might benefit from some personality, which should not be sneered at.
 
https://giphy.com/gifs/rope-noisygifs-skipping-WZ2xrlminAtqM

How many of you can hear this silent gif?

Its silent, gifs dont have noise but many people hear a cyclical thump when watching it. The thump is real, not imagined, but it doesn't come from the gif. Theres loads of examples of us hearing stuff that really isn't there and there are good evolutionary reasons why we do.

So consider it next time you a sighted demo.
 
Simon,

Yeah, but when you’re home, listening to your tunes on your hi-fi, it’s always sighted.

Since you can’t be an unbiased machine, you’re stuck being a human with all the flaws and foibles that entails.

Joe
 
Simon,

Yeah, but when you’re home, listening to your tunes on your hi-fi, it’s always sighted.

Since you can’t be an unbiased machine, you’re stuck being a human with all the flaws and foibles that entails.

Joe
Absobloodylutely. I just wish I could have expressed it so clearly - not that all will understand!
 
https://giphy.com/gifs/rope-noisygifs-skipping-WZ2xrlminAtqM

How many of you can hear this silent gif?

Its silent, gifs dont have noise but many people hear a cyclical thump when watching it. The thump is real, not imagined, but it doesn't come from the gif. Theres loads of examples of us hearing stuff that really isn't there and there are good evolutionary reasons why we do.

So consider it next time you a sighted demo.
What is it that causes the thump when it's heard? Modulation from video to audio? I'm not being difficult but I don't hear it.

As a general comment, not intended for anyone is particular:
I suppose I must learn to enjoy a clinical studio monitoring sound, after all that's how music is mastered. It's my mistake to want to enjoy music on my own terms and no I'm not using a SET (or very rarely do), mostly I use Class D amps with a Chord DAC + a couple of records decks, just in case anyone wondered.
 


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