How do the 'non-subjectivists' choose their hi-fi systems?

[Arkless Electronics]

475A actually, more bandwidth; but I use the 25Mhz LPF for archival Mono

They look virtually the same of course... I have a 475A as well but it needs a complete new timebase switch board... I spent ages working through it and sorting out all sorts of issues with it and then got to the timebase selector and when I got the cover off there were bits of gold plated cam operated "finger" switch in the bottom of it and a tiny piece of paper with just "sorry" written on it! I bet it would have looked great on jazz as well!

 

[S-Man]

I have the greatest respect for people that build their own kit. I've never had an interest in doing this myself which considering my scientific background and training is perhaps strange. I remember when I was around 17 attending a pre-admission interview for a physics BSc course at a rather stuffy university and the interviewer enquiring about my hobbies. When I said that hi-fi was one of them he said 'Oh, so you build your own amplifiers and radio tuners and so on?' When I said no, I just enjoyed listening to it he looked rather taken aback!

The truth is that although I cannot agree with the viewpoint of those people that build their own kit that mains cables cannot affect the sound, and much as I object to the self-righteous know-all snobbery of some of those people towards people like myself, I can almost understand why this occurs. When building your own kit you obviously have many considerations with regard to power supply design, component selection, circuit design etc. etc. In this context I can understand that the concept of mains cables affecting sound is dwarfed and rendered peripheral at best by the vastly more important considerations to be made.

It's a pity we couldn't have a more tolerant and understanding attitude here. I feel that the two 'camps' could both benefit from each others very different perspectives, even if ultimately we can't agree. Unfortunately, and I have to say this, the superior, derogatory and even aggressive attitudes displayed by some of the engineering types here are completely at odds with the spirit of friendly discussion.

Pete

Complete hogwash. Go and read the DIY section. There is minimal aggression and supercilious behaviour there.
There are many people with a sensible blend of subjective and objective. I'd like to count myself amongst these.
FWIW my system is 100% DIY.

 

[YNWOAN]

So, all you engineering minded folk, how do you choose your equipment? Do you believe all equipment sounds the same and do you choose it using some criteria other than sound? Or do you carry out measurements using oscilloscopes etc. to make your choices? Please discuss.

Pete

 

[Mr Pig]

Latest cd player: any large Japanese brand would have done...First and in all probability last dac..Headphones. In the end I could have tossed a coin in every case.

Loathed as I am to prolong the pathetic life of this interminable and worthless thread, how do we know that we are all capable of even hearing differences should they exist?

The above reminds me of taking my now brother in law to buy his first proper Hi-Fi. Planar3 vs Planar2, couldn't hear any difference. Denon CD player vs Rotel CD player, couldn't hear any difference. The salesman and I just kinda looked at each other and shrugged as the differences were fairly obvious to us but he simply bought the cheapest boxes, which thirty years later he still has. Over the years he has heard my system regularly and can't hear the difference between it and his own.

Some people have much better eyesight than others, even without talking about color blindness. Some have better balance or dexterity. It stands to reason that we do not all hear the same things.

Beyond the mechanics, I'm sure we will not all process the sounds our ears collect in the same way. That seems fairly obvious to me when you look at the differing tastes in music we have. Different types of music can be processed by different parts of the brain in different ways and we will all differ in our abilities to decipher musical codes.

Over the years I've had people say that all CD players sound the same, all cables sound the same, all amplifiers sound the same, all DACs sound the same, you name it. But if you want to tell me that I cannot hear a difference between two cables my answer to you is this.

How the feck do you know what I can and cannot hear?

 

[booja30]

Are the Scientologists at all upset that you stole one of their E-Meters?

 

[Del monaco]

One Mans Rotel CD player is another Mans Denon.

 

[YNWOAN]

Hush now - I’m achieving theta.

 

[Octavian]

Loathed as I am to prolong the pathetic life of this interminable and worthless thread, how do we know that we are all capable of even hearing differences should they exist?

By doing a blind test. And by referring to generally accepted limits of human hearing and measurable parameters of audio reproduction. Not everyone is capable of course and some are more capable than others.

The above reminds me of taking my now brother in law to buy his first proper Hi-Fi. Planar3 vs Planar2, couldn't hear any difference. Denon CD player vs Rotel CD player, couldn't hear any difference. The salesman and I just kinda looked at each other and shrugged as the differences were fairly obvious to us but he simply bought the cheapest boxes, which thirty years later he still has. Over the years he has heard my system regularly and can't hear the difference between it and his own.

Your brother seems to be the guy who discovered the truth about the emperor's new clothes.

Some people have much better eyesight than others, even without talking about color blindness. Some have better balance or dexterity. It stands to reason that we do not all hear the same things.

I agree. But what is your point?

Beyond the mechanics, I'm sure we will not all process the sounds our ears collect in the same way. That seems fairly obvious to me when you look at the differing tastes in music we have. Different types of music can be processed by different parts of the brain in different ways and we will all differ in our abilities to decipher musical codes.

A-ha. What is your point?

Over the years I've had people say that all CD players sound the same, all cables sound the same, all amplifiers sound the same, all DACs sound the same, you name it. But if you want to tell me that I cannot hear a difference between two cables my answer to you is this.

How the feck do you know what I can and cannot hear?

Without testing it difficult to say anything certain. However, it is safe to say that it is utterly unlikely that you can hear differences between cables.

 

[Mr Pig]

Without testing it difficult to say anything certain. However, it is safe to say that it is utterly unlikely that you can hear differences between cables.

You missed out the feck, which is what I don't give about the opinions of people like you ;0)

 

[James]

The above reminds me of taking my now brother in law to buy his first proper Hi-Fi. Planar3 vs Planar2, couldn't hear any difference. Denon CD player vs Rotel CD player, couldn't hear any difference. The salesman and I just kinda looked at each other and shrugged as the differences were fairly obvious to us but he simply bought the cheapest boxes, which thirty years later he still has. Over the years he has heard my system regularly and can't hear the difference between it and his own.

Your brother is not afflicted by our burden, so in that respect he is lucky. I'm reminded of a friend with perfect pitch. It used to drive him crazy when instruments are not tuned correctly. I'm just bothered by people who can't sing in tune.

I've had a love-hate relationship with CDs since the late 80s. Then I realised there are poor CDPs and great CDPs.

 

[Mr Pig]

Your brother is not afflicted by our burden, so in that respect he is lucky.

Yes, perhaps but the question remains over what he can and cannot hear.

Years ago a friend and I were out playing on our mountain bikes. We liked to explore the web of farm tracks and long disused trails that cover the countryside around where I live. We were standing on a hilltop taking a breath and looking at the view when he pointed something out.

At least a mile away was a house with what amounted to a scrap yard around it. My friend had noticed that there was an indicator light blinking on one of the scrap cars. Even when he told me which car it was and I knew exactly where to look I could only barely see it. I certainly would never have noticed it on my own.

I need reading glasses now, I didn't then and even now my 'long sight' tests fine. Yet he picked up that light, I didn't. Does that mean his eyesight was better than mine? He was looking for different things? It doesn't really matter. Something existed which he picked up on and I did not.

If the light had been slightly dimmer and I could not see it at all, could I have correctly asserted that there was no light?

 

[clivem2]

Reminds me of kit that makes you notice a sound you'd not spotted previously...but it was always there so now you hear it even with the previous equipment. How do you ABX this?

 

[fegs]

Reminds me of kit that makes you notice a sound you'd not spotted previously...but it was always there so now you hear it even with the previous equipment. How do you ABX this?

I had this only this week, after recent upgrades and new turntable, I listened to New Order - Technique album
Listening to the track Round and Round for the umpteenth time in 31 years since it's release, I heard a sound I'd never heard before
I even played it again to make sure I hadn't imagined it
Amazing!

 

[Shadders]

Reminds me of kit that makes you notice a sound you'd not spotted previously...but it was always there so now you hear it even with the previous equipment. How do you ABX this?

Hi,
Yes, i had a Sony Walkman, and someone recorded onto tape a favourite album using their LP12, and i heard sounds i had not heard on my system (which was very modest). I get the reason why - the much better turntable and cartridge.

For amplifiers and DACs, then a signal is a signal. They either amplify or reproduce the signal or not. Todays equipment and technology, there really is no reason as to why it should sound different, given the performance capability, which exceeds our human hearing.

Regards,
Shadders.

 

[ClothEarsAndy]

Years ago I realised I could just plug the scope into the speakers and leave it to do the beastly job of receiving the signal while I can proceed to ignore hifi, and hifi arguments.

That way, everything is satisfactory.

Loving the EUB Martin...( just wanted to mention it as everybody else was lusting over the scope).

Im an engineering manager with a degree in applied physics with a heavy emphasis on semiconductor physics so I have more than a passing knowledge of how a transistor or any other electrical device works.

I'm an objectivist (naturally) and would possibly buy digital stuff mostly of specs or techy geekery but would want to listen to anything analogue.

As for the concept that a mains cable can affect the sound. Where's the emoji for a face palm ? No it really can't.

It's this sort of snake oil that prevents me ever doing anything more than dipping my toe into hifi once a decade or so and then retreating, and just enjoying the music.

I still remember the likes of Messrs Belt and Hughes back in the 90's. It's about as credible as anything from David Icke.

 

[awkwardbydesign]

Yet he picked up that light, I didn't. Does that mean his eyesight was better than mine? He was looking for different things? It doesn't really matter. Something existed which he picked up on and I did not.

I used to be a signwriter. I can be driving past shops, not even looking at them, and badly spaced letters, or an A back to front (for example) will jump out at me. It's not better eyesight, in my case, just training. The same with sound, you can learn to hear better. Some never do.
My wife thinks I look (listen) for problems, but rarely is that true; they jump out at me.

 

[YNWOAN]

Yeah, that’s what you lizard people would say.....

 

[awkwardbydesign]

Hardly.

 

[Octavian]

Yes, perhaps but the question remains over what he can and cannot hear.

But that is not the only question which remains. Another one is whether the differences you and the salesman thought you were hearing were real, i.e. caused by differences in the acoustic output of the cdps. Or was it just your imagination?

 

[scotty38]

The OP seems to have disappeared... Guess he's working on his next new thread