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How do the 'non-subjectivists' choose their hi-fi systems?

nbaptista said:
I always try to hear the Hi Fi I´m buying. Is not so difficult, just go to a shop and listen for yourself with yours cd´s. But first I decide on a budget,and then try to buy the better product!
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That’s great but the problem is you listen to it in a different room with different variables. I’d rather try it in situ. Some trades are happy to allow this.
 
Pete L said:
This does seem to sum up the attitude of the self-build engineering fraternity rather well. I disagree with it vehemently because my ears tell me a very different story. I suppose that's really why I never got into building my own kit - because I knew that whatever I knocked up wouldn't be a patch on a professionally designed and engineered product.

Pete
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But there are some extremely capable self builders/engineers on this forum and I’m quite sure that they do make equipment that can equal or even surpass the performance of many of the more branded engineered gear. When I look into the DIY thread I become envious that I don’t know enough about engineering to attempt some of these builds.I also love the resurrections of old equipment. I think to sum the ‘fraternity’ up in this way is possibly a little ungenerous. The only DIY I’ve done is the very simple task of putting together Pi ‘tat’ to produce a streaming system that is extremely satisfactory and capable of outdoing many of the so called high end computers that purport to be so much better.
 
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When I got back into hifi in the 1990's, I decided on a modest all new system of cd player, stereo integrated amplifier and small two way vented stand mounted speakers. About £1000 worth. I hadn't listened to any of it as I lived far from the madding crowd. All sounded fine. My friends said it sounded fine. End of?

No! I did a very silly thing and bought a second hand turntable! It sounded more enjoyable than the cd player (which wasn't bad, it was voted cd of the year in its time by one magazine). The rest is history, years of getting record players to sound better and better. I no longer listen to cd's (except when they are played on the radio).

I am a music lover and not a subjectivist, if you need to pigeon-hole me. But I have heard differences between different constructions of loudspeaker cable, and amplifiers, and tone arm counterweights and turntable plinths. Essentially a musician (for 65 years) I'm sure I know what real instruments sound like. And most hifi I've listened to doesn't provide the illusion that I'm listening to real musicians playing real instruments.
 
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Mr Pig said:
I long ago gave up giving two fecks about how other people choose their stereos. What is the point of this? Do you think another internet user might actually change their mind about something?
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Is this satire? You are always rather quick to comment on other people’s choices;)
 
I was a little more neurotic about hifi for a time. I ran a Naim system that I was very proud of and even looked to the upgrade path. Due to financial misfortune I had to move the Naim on and once I’d surfaced I was able to pay for a second hand system that I liked the sound of. I now don’t really think about it all too much and just enjoy my music.The system engages me and makes me think more about the music than the hifi. I think it’s a healthy position to be in. The biggest change I made recently was to clean and reconfigure the kit that I have to make it easier to access and also to give it a bit of love. I’ve seen and heard some amazing systems but I find nowadays that I return home with no envy and no wish to change anything really. I just look forward to pushing the button to my own little system and sitting back to enjoy some Beethoven string quartets or Elvis Costello. I think I reached my Audio Zen some time ago.
 
Pete L said:
It's a pity we couldn't have a more tolerant and understanding attitude here. I feel that the two 'camps' could both benefit from each others very different perspectives, even if ultimately we can't agree. Unfortunately, and I have to say this, the superior, derogatory and even aggressive attitudes displayed by some of the engineering types here are completely at odds with the spirit of friendly discussion.

Pete
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Forgive me if someone's already asked you this, here or elsewhere: when you claim that you hear differences between mains cables, or DC power cables, have you tried listening to the different cables under double blind conditions? Or even single blind conditions?

The reason I ask is that the placebo effect exists. I know I've sometimes been convinced I heard a difference between components, which I later found I couldn't reliably distinguish.

Tolerance and understanding work both ways. Isn't there just a hint of aggression in your OP, demanding incredulously to know how others who think differently from you can possibly manage to select components?
 
Mr Pig said:
Oh we're really going for the caravan now aren't we?!
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One of the things that I’ve moved away from is the talk of double blind tests etc. Though I was curious about this initially I just found that it distracted me from the main purpose of my system. And cables looking to find a difference. I knew somebody who had a very expensive system and bought a new well known Dac to put in his system. I listened to it and couldn’t hear any difference at all. He told me that I needed to listen more carefully and told me what I was missing. I soon realised that the new Dac was being bypassed by his digital amp that already included a sound Dac. We were still listening to the original Dac! It gave me faith in my own listening skills. Some hear what they want to hear I’m afraid and especially when they’ve paid a large amount it seems. Not a problem for me with my own twopenny stack.
 
I'm slightly puzzled by the wording of the question. :)

I tend to choose items that play nicely together and give a convincing sound I can enjoy.

However understanding tech specs can help point me in direction of items that seem more likely to do that.

Followed by... listening to decide if the combination is OK, or not.

If it is, good. If not, I may get out my slide rule and AVO to try and decide why so I can have another look at alternatives on offer wilst trying to avoiding repeating what handicapped my previous combination.

So for me the division seems daft, and looks though the telescope from the wrong end. :)

Engineers can listen. Even sometimes enjoy the noise music makes.

Oh, I'm also old fashioned and like tone controls and balance controls. Can help deal with minor problems and make the results sound nicer. Not very 'purist' though.
 
Helen Bach said:
Essentially a musician (for 65 years) I'm sure I know what real instruments sound like. And most hifi I've listened to doesn't provide the illusion that I'm listening to real musicians playing real instruments.
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Bear in mind that many (most?) listeners-to-music-on-hifi don't know what live unamplified music sounds like. Often the live music they hear is big venues/small clubs and pubs. 10 double basses at the RNCM or choral music in a basilica give a different perspective!
 
I use my ears to decide what equipment I want to buy, and cannot fathom why anyone would have any other way of doing it. That said, the shortlist of equipment to be auditioned is made using specifications. I’ve never found anything that doesn’t measure well to be something I could live with. Equally, there seem to be a theory by some that if a few components measure well then they’ll all sound the same. Definitely not true, in my experience.

Ah, who am I kidding? I can’t lie to you lot. My actual kit choice method is a lot simpler - I just look for the Bang & Olufsen logo...
 
Beobloke said:
I use my ears to decide what equipment I want to buy, and cannot fathom why anyone would have any other way of doing it. That said, the shortlist of equipment to be auditioned is made using specifications. I’ve never found anything that doesn’t measure well to be something I could live with. Equally, there seem to be a theory by some that if a few components measure well then they’ll all sound the same. Definitely not true, in my experience.

Ah, who am I kidding? I can’t lie to you lot. My actual kit choice method is a lot simpler - I just look for the Bang & Olufsen logo...
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My B&O TV remote has died and I can’t turn my TV on.
 
Has anyone who answered said that they base their decision on just measurements? Didn’t look like it.

I can think of just ONE person who has managed to convince me that he really did buy only buy based on specs.

So why the number of deliberately provocative comments in the past few years?
Surely not just hypocrisy?
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Jez, you started a thread a few days ago, and a fellow fishie got unnecessarily personal and abusive. A couple of us rounded on them, in your defence.

Your remark here is quite funny, and not in the same league as that experience, but it is definitely on the same spectrum as that. Maybe have a care?
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Definitely not in the same league Steve no. It's also very pertinent to the discussion as believing mains cables make a difference is quite literally just as crazy as believing the 5G conspiracy. Which as well as getting a dig in was kinda the point of it...

I can kind of see how to those without reasonably advanced knowledge of electronics the thought process could go:

"hi fi is powered by electricity. That electricity enters via a mains cable. Ergo that cable may effect the quality of the electricity and hence the quality of the sound."

It really does not work like this though. When you properly understand how a power supply works it can be seen that the idea of a mains cable having any effect is as "out there" as N Rays or divination by the intestines of a goat. The 5G thing is no more crazy.
At least with speaker cable and interconnects there can be a some effects caused by spectacularly bad choices such as using 10m lengths of thin speaker cable and ending up with 1-2 Ohms of resistance from the cable.... the bell wire effect if you like... There is no such similar issue with mains cables. For them to have an effect is as impossible as time travel and perpetual motion

Certain individuals trolling along just these lines are propagating fake news, possibly shilling for foo companies for all I know, bringing the industry, hobby, engineering and science into disrepute and possibly now and again swaying otherwise sensible people into wasting maybe £500 on a "magic cable"... no doubt cos lockdown under a bridge is no fun...

An anecdote I've told here before is that when I was Chief Engineer with Alchemist Products a few of us (and some old Musical Fidelity colleagues who had dropped in) were having laugh about people paying loads of money for foo speaker cable when Warren, the Financial Director, came and joined in and after a short while went all serious and said "of course if we can get some cable cheap enough with our name on it we will recommend it as being the best cable for our amplifiers... bottom line and all that"... which kinda says it all really...

It strikes me as rather odd that those who keep starting threads about page 1 of the electronics text book, "wire", apart from having failed to understand any of that page, never mention anything from when we get to the meat of the subject on say page 420... or indeed manage to turn over to page 2 for that matter... but I digress...

Now of course to "believers" this is actually akin to a religion and for their own perverse reasons even if we could reanimate Einstein, Newton and Faraday to come along and explain why they are wrong it would make no difference whatsoever. They would be just another three "measurebators" in the eyes of the foo believer.

I have in the past explained the functioning of a typical PSU down to the entire chain from mains plug to pure DC entering the circuitry of the amplifier board itself taking into account each component in a post 3 times the length of this one... Martin Clark made a superb post doing similar when a mains cable post (now deleted) was started by guess who in the DIY area a few weeks back. To me, as an EE, this is akin to finding myself having to explain to otherwise rational people why square wheels are not a good idea, but, unfortunately, to many electricity is anything but intuitive... So here we are...
 
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