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House of Lords - Brexit circus kicks up another gear

jay

jay

built for speed
I believe that the HoL commence their debate tomorrow on the Article 50 bill.

What are people's expectations? Will there actually be some quality debate, possible protections and amendments for us all OR will they all disappear to lunch at convenient moments? I really wonder what the point of the HoL's is if they don't make some material contributions to something so important to this country...
 
The problem is that the current Tory government, true to its ugly hard-right authoritarian form, has basically said that if they disagree they get scrapped. This is a government that doesn't want any debate, doesn't respect the national judiciary and I am expecting won't like the second chamber much either. Such is the popularist tabloid-generated/inflamed 'The Will Of The People' to which they delight in pandering. Facts, evidence and informed debate are for wussy liberals, progressives, stuffy intellectuals and academics. Modern social media and alt-right blog-driven soundbite politics has no need for such things. Theresa May and her shower are far more 'Trump' than many have yet grasped...
 
Nigel Lawson doing panto ( if he gets back from 'the shack' in France)-
Who do you think you are kidding Mrs. Merkel?
If you think old England's done.

25s4xax.jpg
 
I want to see Tebbit fulminating in ermine and loose dentures. The contribution of Norman St.John-Stevan will be missed.
 
Tony L said:
The problem is that the current Tory government, true to its ugly hard-right authoritarian form, has basically said that if they disagree they get scrapped. This is a government that doesn't want any debate, doesn't respect the national judiciary and I am expecting won't like the second chamber much either. Such is the popularist tabloid-generated/inflamed 'The Will Of The People' to which they delight in pandering. Facts, evidence and informed debate are for wussy liberals, progressives, stuffy intellectuals and academics. Modern social media and alt-right blog-driven soundbite politics has no need for such things. Theresa May and her shower are far more 'Trump' than many have yet grasped...
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I suspect you're right Tony and we're about to see just exactly how much leverage can be bought to play on the "rubber stampers". There have been sound-bites both ways over the recent week from the usual suspects, I hope this becomes an "existential" question for the HoL, otherwise what really is the point of them...
 
Tony L said:
Facts, evidence and informed debate are for wussy liberals, progressives, stuffy intellectuals and academics.
Click to expand...
I dislike the Tories too, but it appears to me that your "liberals, progressives, stuffy intellectuals and academics" are simply fooled by longer words. The outpourings of the Guardian and Independent, for example, are equally transparent in their bias as the tabloids. But although I rather like intellectual discussion, I don't believe it has any more value than the "ordinary man's" gut reaction. The "educated" naturally believe that education confers wisdom, but education simply produces education. Not the same as smart, clever, insightful or wise. Just educated. Likewise with intelligence, not necessarily of any more value than simple experience, and deeply distrusted by those who are not part of this establishment. Quite rightly too.
 
What I find most remarkable is that in ordinary times few if any posters would spare two words in support of the House of Lords for being unelected, undemocratic, out of touch, etc etc.. Now they have become a bulwark to save everyone from a democratically arrived at decision that a minority of people disagree with.
 
awkwardbydesign said:
I dislike the Tories too, but it appears to me that your "liberals, progressives, stuffy intellectuals and academics" are simply fooled by longer words. The outpourings of the Guardian and Independent, for example, are equally transparent in their bias as the tabloids. But although I rather like intellectual discussion, I don't believe it has any more value than the "ordinary man's" gut reaction. The "educated" naturally believe that education confers wisdom, but education simply produces education. Not the same as smart, clever, insightful or wise. Just educated. Likewise with intelligence, not necessarily of any more value than simple experience, and deeply distrusted by those who are not part of this establishment. Quite rightly too.
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Well said, although I vote Lib Dem and read the Independent. I do, however, still consider myself to be a pleb.
 
SteveT said:
What I find most remarkable is that in ordinary times few if any posters would spare two words in support of the House of Lords for being unelected, undemocratic, out of touch, etc etc.. Now they have become a bulwark to save everyone from a democratically arrived at decision that a minority of people disagree with.
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For me Brexit was just the start. Hopefully we can dismantle the House Of Lords next. They're dodgy as funk, that lot.
 
SteveT said:
What I find most remarkable is that in ordinary times few if any posters would spare two words in support of the House of Lords for being unelected, undemocratic, out of touch, etc etc.. Now they have become a bulwark to save everyone from a democratically arrived at decision that a minority of people disagree with.
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I've always liked the idea of an unelected house. A body that doesn't work on a 5 year cycle, doesn't have to appease voters, can look long term at society, etc. And definitely not to be appointed by the current administration! Whether it should have a hereditary component, or a church component, is another question. Although I have nothing against a group (class?) that has historically planned for the generations as yet unborn. A large reason why I voted to leave the EU; for my childrens' and granchildrens' futures. You may disagree with my conclusions, but they ARE some of my reasons. Not for my own pocket, which seems the main obsession of remainers.
I do think the House of Lords should be reformed, attendance should be required of its members; use it or lose it. And certainly some "ordinary people", preferably not intellectuals, they cause enough trouble as it is.
For similar reasons I am also a constitutional monarchist; I may dislike individuals but not the institution.
Deeply unfashionable, I know, but then I'm not. Fashionable, that is.
 
I hope they try and give clarity to the EU workers currently in the UK. I think it is appalling that the government will not do this.
 
Rodrat said:
I hope they try and give clarity to the EU workers currently in the UK. I think it is appalling that the government will not do this.
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Agreed. Or are they holding out for a reciprocal agreement from the EU? Still, sometimes it is better to do the right thing first.
 
awkwardbydesign said:
I dislike the Tories too, but it appears to me that your "liberals, progressives, stuffy intellectuals and academics" are simply fooled by longer words. The outpourings of the Guardian and Independent, for example, are equally transparent in their bias as the tabloids. But although I rather like intellectual discussion, I don't believe it has any more value than the "ordinary man's" gut reaction. The "educated" naturally believe that education confers wisdom, but education simply produces education. Not the same as smart, clever, insightful or wise. Just educated. Likewise with intelligence, not necessarily of any more value than simple experience, and deeply distrusted by those who are not part of this establishment. Quite rightly too.
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Well said.

I suppose you have to look no further than May & the current tory government & those that went before, Cameron & Osborne, all well educated intelligent people, have they any clue to the needs of our country, very little.
 
awkwardbydesign said:
I've always liked the idea of an unelected house. A body that doesn't work on a 5 year cycle, doesn't have to appease voters, can look long term at society, etc. And definitely not to be appointed by the current administration! Whether it should have a hereditary component, or a church component, is another question. Although I have nothing against a group (class?) that has historically planned for the generations as yet unborn. A large reason why I voted to leave the EU; for my childrens' and granchildrens' futures. You may disagree with my conclusions, but they ARE some of my reasons. Not for my own pocket, which seems the main obsession of remainers.
I do think the House of Lords should be reformed, attendance should be required of its members; use it or lose it. And certainly some "ordinary people", preferably not intellectuals, they cause enough trouble as it is.
For similar reasons I am also a constitutional monarchist; I may dislike individuals but not the institution.
Deeply unfashionable, I know, but then I'm not. Fashionable, that is.
Click to expand...

Some really interesting ideas in there awkwardbydesign, apart from the voting to leave of course :) If the Brexit circus can drive some of those reforms at least some good will have come of all this (IMV of course).
 
awkwardbydesign said:
I dislike the Tories too, but it appears to me that your "liberals, progressives, stuffy intellectuals and academics" are simply fooled by longer words. The outpourings of the Guardian and Independent, for example, are equally transparent in their bias as the tabloids. But although I rather like intellectual discussion, I don't believe it has any more value than the "ordinary man's" gut reaction. The "educated" naturally believe that education confers wisdom, but education simply produces education. Not the same as smart, clever, insightful or wise. Just educated. Likewise with intelligence, not necessarily of any more value than simple experience, and deeply distrusted by those who are not part of this establishment. Quite rightly too.
Click to expand...

I think you miss much of my point which is basically that the far-right (hard-Brexit Tories, UKIP, Dacre, Murdoch etc) seek very deliberately to shut-down any meaningful discussion. They do not want anything analysed, they do not wish to present any evidence to back their decisions or allow their actions be reviewed. These people seek to get everything done in dark rooms far away from any scrutiny or accountability, as hard-right authoritarians always do. Look how Gina Miller and the high-court judges were publicly vilified for being absolutely correct about UK parliamentary process and how evasive government stooge Liz Truss happily stood to one side and allowed it. Miller received countless death threats, rape threats and other examples of moronic UK culture to such an extent that for simply standing up against government tyrany and being proven 100% right she now needs bodyguards etc. That is the dark culture we are moving towards and decent people should fight it with all we have.
 
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