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Head-Fi peeps; Crossfeed. Let's discuss.

Y

yuckyamson

pfm Member
So, I purchased an SPL phonitor XE. My friend and I take turns using it. When I was pitched on the idea of a crossfeed circuit, my grew-up-in-a-hifi-store brain immediately dismissed it as being some kind of tomfoolery. I figured it was in the league of an equalizer (moreso the woodward than the washington, but still), a loudness control, quadrophonic, etc. Something to just get in the way of the music.

That being said, as I did the research and started to understand the motivation behind the circuit, it's purpose and importance became very clear--stereo tracks are mixed in a nearfield environment, live recordings are set in the stage in front, and it is truly only mono recordings which "escape" the problem of wholly separate lc/rc presentation which headphones present when driven. In many ways, the better the dac and amplifier (at least from a cross-talk perspective) get, the greater this problem gets.

I realize there are digital crossfeed circuits but obviously being the annoying analog-loving dude I am, the SPL circuit, and performing the crossfeed in the analog domain, speaks a lot more to my sensibilites.

The results? I don't think I could live without it now. The biggest change is just the settling of bass lines; when the circuit is engaged everything feels so "in place", and when turned off, it feels like riding a camel.

I know the DCS recently put it in the bartok (perhaps digitally I didn't investigate), but I really think this should be a priority circuit to incorporate on high end HFA and I'm not sure why it isn't more prevalent. I understand that Schiit is releasing a new high-end tube based headphone amp, and I'm hoping they put this in, but.....

anyway, thought?
 
This is a feature always worth trying. The benefit will depend on the recording, the headphones and your own taste
 
It is also possible - with only a little knowledge - to build one as a cheap and passive and adjustable inline doodad to add-in between a given headphone output, and a given pair of headphones. I played with such for a while over 20yrs ago; and again recently (DSP) - and have never taken to it, to be honest.

But - yes, it may be worth trying for many, esp. since it is now so easily synthesised to taste in dsp instead!
 
I have also tinkered with this, in much the same manner as @martin clark describes.
Apart from the odd recording that has very extreme or weird stereo effects, I also wasn't bothered about it for any further use. I still have one lurking in drawer somewhere...
Others swear by them, so "up to you" as they like to say over here.
 
For any Roon users on here, there's an option to add crossfeed for headphone replay in the DSP section of Roon.

Last time I tried it I wasn't that taken with it but I should give it another go.
 
It's absolutely mandatory for me.

Presently I only occasionally use headphones while working at my computer so I use a DSP plugin in Linux to implement it.
 
jimification said:
For any Roon users on here, there's an option to add crossfeed for headphone replay in the DSP section of Roon.

Last time I tried it I wasn't that taken with it but I should give it another go.
Click to expand...
J River also has a fancy crossfeed option.

But I suspect there is a lot of work going on with implementing much more sophisticated head related transfer functions to improve audio in upcoming VR headsets, and this might trickle out into the hifi world eventually. Even Apples new AirPod Pros attempt some fancy “spatial audio” which doesn’t sound too bad, and Atmos recordings might take the possibilities further.
 
AndyU said:
J River also has a fancy crossfeed option.

But I suspect there is a lot of work going on with implementing much more sophisticated head related transfer functions to improve audio in upcoming VR headsets, and this might trickle out into the hifi world eventually. Even Apples new AirPod Pros attempt some fancy “spatial audio” which doesn’t sound too bad, and Atmos recordings might take the possibilities further.
Click to expand...

To the best of my understanding, VR uses object-oriented encoding like Atmos or Ambisonics. I believe (although am happy to be corrected) that Apple's spatial audio is Atmos or something similar as well. Indeed, Ambisonics-encoded audio via headphones blows simple crossfeed out of the water.

I suspect that for good old-fashioned stereo encoding, the best we might be able to do is to take existing crossfeed models and update them to be dynamic with regards to head position+rotation. That would require motion trackers on our headphones, which might actually be fairly simple to DIY if one knows the maths and basic electronics. I know my Sennheisers would look cool with an Arduino strapped to the top.

I am absolutely not an expert in this stuff; my knowledge comes from chats with my brother-in-law who is in fact a well-regarded expert in these. But that means my knowledge could be mangled and softened by the ravages of time and/or alcohol that may have been consumed at the time of discussion. I'm very happy to be corrected.
 
gustav_errata said:
To the best of my understanding, VR uses object-oriented encoding like Atmos or Ambisonics. I believe (although am happy to be corrected) that Apple's spatial audio is Atmos or something similar as well. Indeed, Ambisonics-encoded audio via headphones blows simple crossfeed out of the water.

I suspect that for good old-fashioned stereo encoding, the best we might be able to do is to take existing crossfeed models and update them to be dynamic with regards to head position+rotation. That would require motion trackers on our headphones, which might actually be fairly simple to DIY if one knows the maths and basic electronics. I know my Sennheisers would look cool with an Arduino strapped to the top.

I am absolutely not an expert in this stuff; my knowledge comes from chats with my brother-in-law who is in fact a well-regarded expert in these. But that means my knowledge could be mangled and softened by the ravages of time and/or alcohol that may have been consumed at the time of discussion. I'm very happy to be corrected.
Click to expand...
Apples spatial audio does in fact work with non-Atmos encoded material, and also uses motion sensors in the headphones to keep the sound field stationary when you move your head. I found that a bit queasy, so I turned it off. They also have microphones inside your ear and claim to use them to almost continuously adjust the balance to compensate for the fit and shape of your ears. Smart stuff. It looks like they will have a high resolution wireless solution this year also.
 
Knocked up one several years ago (with bypass switch) for my Naim system headphone section. For sure, I can hear a difference, but I can’t say that it does a lot for me.
 
jimification said:
For any Roon users on here, there's an option to add crossfeed for headphone replay in the DSP section of Roon.

Last time I tried it I wasn't that taken with it but I should give it another go.
Click to expand...

this is my only experience with crossfeed and I love it. I can’t use Roon at work…just the Qobuz app on Mac OS and I miss that feature (where I use headphones all day).
 
Interesting, isn't it. I am exclusively a headphone user these days and I cannot see any benefit in crossfeed. Implemented in software or hardware (which is mostly dsp these days so software anyway) it does nothing for me. It certainly doesn't compensate for not being speakers across the room.
 
MarkW said:
Interesting, isn't it. I am exclusively a headphone user these days and I cannot see any benefit in crossfeed. Implemented in software or hardware (which is mostly dsp these days so software anyway) it does nothing for me. It certainly doesn't compensate for not being speakers across the room.
Click to expand...

For me the main benefit comes when listening to recordings with sounds panned hard to one channel. I'm headphones that makes me very uncomfortable and if too many sounds are panned like that I find it a bit dizzying.
 
A link to the dCS paper on expanse. They seem to do a bit more processing than basic cross-feed.

As a combined DAC / Pre-amp / high end headphone amp with the ability to drive any non-electrostatic headphones out there, the Bartok is quite a nice keystone for serious headphone users. At a price of course, but I've seen some spending crazy money on headphones and dedicated amps.

http://dcsltd.fra1.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/media/2020/12/dCS-Expanse-White-Paper-001-1.pdf
 
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