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Have Quad ESLs had their day?

mandryka said:
I’m sorry, I misunderstood you, I thought you said you had two pairs of ESL 63s, one restored by Quad and one by OTA. I am only interested in 63s because that’s what I have, that’s what will have to be restored one evil day. My bad.
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No I misunderstood you! I have 2 pairs of 63's you are correct. Will need to get them side by side at home to compare but my Quad done ones are now 10yrs 'old'
Fran repaired his 63's himself and we have compared that set with my OTA pair. No noticeable difference albeit on a short listening comparison. My new pair have all new OTA boards and they advise that they are uprated for what its worth whilst Fran's are home done repairs to the EHT's (Fran can elaborate).
For comparison we ran them without grills and dust covers. They sound a lot more open like this. We didn't compare them with the Quad grills against the OTA grills which are definitely a lot more open.
 
Light reading for @mandryka and @LazyHammer I believe this to be true. Definitely for me both 57s and 63s I have got that are 'new' or close to new are brighter sounding. This explains the view OTA panels and why I feel it is misplaced.

I would be curious to know what tension Quad or OTA glue the mylar to the stator. That might have an impact. Also curious as to how complicated or simple the jigs they use for this process. It looks like the only area where the work might alter the characteristics. It may not matter I don't have any technical knowledge to comment either way

http://www.quadesl.org/index.php/r-d/aged-panels
 
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Another factor to be considered when comparing original and 'aftermarket' panels is the difference in surface resistivity of the conductive doping compound used to coat the diaphragms. Graphite or other carbon derivative will behave differently to the 'calaton' / nylon solution that was originally used by Quad.

On the subject of tensioning, I would guess that the company in Germany that bought the original Quad factory jigs employ the best methodology to ensure that optimal tensioning is achieved. This is explained in their promotional video.
 
brecklandboy said:
Another factor to be considered when comparing original and 'aftermarket' panels is the difference in surface resistivity of the conductive doping compound used to coat the diaphragms. Graphite or other carbon derivative will behave differently to the 'calaton' / nylon solution that was originally used by Quad.

On the subject of tensioning, I would guess that the company in Germany that bought the original Quad factory jigs employ the best methodology to ensure that optimal tensioning is achieved. This is explained in their promotional video.
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Do they show the jig in this video? They are very expensive compared to Quad and OTA but there work looks perfect. I would like to think that the newer products (glues, mylar etc) available for this work are at least as good if not better than what was available 40 years ago, especially glues. I think this harking back to the pass when Peter Walker only used the best products to get this magical sound is like the thinking on Brexit (just not as toxic :D) When you look at the aluminium extrusions used in the 63's which look like something Peter picked up from his local B&Q store it would seem he used whatever stuff was available to get the products into production as cheaply as possible. I couldn't see a character like Peter Walker being too enamoured with Mannfred Steins Bauhaus creations and the motorized lift for electrostats for €2500. His motorized lift was a pair of stacking chairs :)
 
tonerei said:
Light reading for @mandryka and @LazyHammer I believe this to be true. Definitely for me both 57s and 63s I have got that are 'new' or close to new are brighter sounding. This explains the view OTA panels and why I feel it is misplaced.

I would be curious to know what tension Quad or OTA glue the mylar to the stator. That might have an impact. Also curious as to how complicated or simple the jigs they use for this process. It looks like the only area where the work might alter the characteristics. It may not matter I don't have any technical knowledge to comment either way

http://www.quadesl.org/index.php/r-d/aged-panels
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The ones I heard at the store were definitely brighter than I expected, especially when you're completely in focus with the center image...
 
LazyHammer said:
The ones I heard at the store were definitely brighter than I expected, especially when you're completely in focus with the center image...
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Any 57's would surely have had to have had work done on them by this point so sounds as if that pair have had work. Ah just go in and try and bash them down a bit being able to audition them is great as the other pair are an unknown quantity.
 
The German 'replica' ESL57s are indeed significantly more expensive than a rebuilt pair from OTA for example. However, because they largely use the original Quad tooling to manufacture the panels, I guess if a used pair came up for sale in the UK, i would be tempted to purchase them as I suspect that they would be closer in presentation to the Quad originals. Please, please, please, Quad relaunch the ESL57 in 2022 !
 
Thanks I had never seen the video before. I see the jig they use now and also the oven that they then place the panel into. The seem to also have a very professional set up for applying the coating. OTA are a bit like a lot of english industry by comparison. I have been to their original workshop and didn't see any equipment like that.
It would be very interesting to compare a 57 or 63 done by Quad Musikwiedergabe and see if the difference is really that big. Some of the prices are eye watering.
https://www.quad-musik.de/index.php/en/products/electrostatics/quad-esl63-2-qa-electrostatics
I notice they also make the plastic cage and get it CNC milled. I suppose the most cost effective way of comparing their work would be to kit out a pair of 63's with their panels but that is going to cost €2400 for us Europeans and more for UK buffs.

I would be hoping OTA are getting 90%+ close to the German product. Certainly a lot cheaper route for UK buyers but for the rest of us Brexit has messed this up.
 
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ITs interesting - there are always two camps when it comes to restoring/fixing quads. One camp places high importance on matching exactly to the original materials, coatings, and so on (restoration in its true form). The other camp is open to new processes (ie fixing?), and seems more focussed on getting something that sounds at least as good, and that works well. I find myself veering much more towards the second camp here, because it would seem likely that even with the best of control, there has to have been creeping variation in quads over time. Even if you look at the early panels using the black stator supports and using spacer washers compared to the later light grey ones. Also the original 57 coating is long gone etc. Same with the clamping circuits etc that they brought in over time.

Those Braun LE1 versions of the 57s are just gorgeous in my eyes. But I would have to peer through the tears when I see the prices.
 
Anyone looking at restoring their 57s shoukd look seriously at Electrostatic Solutions in the US. For 63s too, I believe.
 
I'd like to be able to look at the Electrostatic solutions website, but somehow I either get nothing back on their website, or it says that access from here (Ireland) is blocked.

Can anyone else access them?
http://estatsolution.com/

EDIT - I used a VPN and can access the site////
 
tonerei said:
Thanks I had never seen the video before. I see the jig they use now and also the oven that they then place the panel into. The seem to also have a very professional set up for applying the coating. OTA are a bit like a lot of english industry by comparison. I have been to their original workshop and didn't see any equipment like that.
It would be very interesting to compare a 57 or 63 done by Quad Musikwiedergabe and see if the difference is really that big. Some of the prices are eye watering.
https://www.quad-musik.de/index.php/en/products/electrostatics/quad-esl63-2-qa-electrostatics
I notice they also make the plastic cage and get it CNC milled. I suppose the most cost effective way of comparing their work would be to kit out a pair of 63's with their panels but that is going to cost €2400 for us Europeans and more for UK buffs.

I would be hoping OTA are getting 90%+ close to the German product. Certainly a lot cheaper route for UK buyers but for the rest of us Brexit has messed this up.
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I've been up to Quad Musikwiedergabe (they fixed my 57s) and have seen the famous jig, which then even had the original lead weights for tensioning the membrane. Manfred Stein is a great guy to deal with, a genuine enthusiast, happy to show people around the place.
 
tones said:
I've been up to Quad Musikwiedergabe (they fixed my 57s) and have seen the famous jig, which then even had the original lead weights for tensioning the membrane. Manfred Stein is a great guy to deal with, a genuine enthusiast, happy to show people around the place.
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Out of curiosity Tones did you get to see if the same process was used for 63's? What are your impressions of the Mannfred ones compared to what you had previously ( I don't mean OTA or Quad or original but a good sounding pair) ? We were chatting about Musikwiedergabes stuff and the conclusion was his redone 989's or 63's are probably rolls royce compared to Quads current production models.

Hope to get to Munich next year so had a quick look at his location. Unfortunately it is way too far to make a trip.
 
tonerei said:
Out of curiosity Tones did you get to see if the same process was used for 63's? What are your impressions of the Mannfred ones compared to what you had previously ( I don't mean OTA or Quad or original but a good sounding pair) ? We were chatting about Musikwiedergabes stuff and the conclusion was his redone 989's or 63's are probably rolls royce compared to Quads current production models.

Hope to get to Munich next year so had a quick look at his location. Unfortunately it is way too far to make a trip.
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Sorry, I can't help you there - Manfred only showed me The Jig, which, I guess, was the 57 jig. I'm not even sure that he did 63s back then. Certainly there were none in his showroom. He invited me for lunch with his group, but when I declined, he left me in the showroom with music to play! It was all rather good! I'm not a particularly discerning listener, so I can't tell whether the refurb was better, just that I like the noise they make. ESL 57s were an itch I always wanted to scratch - I'm glad I did.
 
That would make for a very interesting visit alright - you were lucky to be able to enjoy that.

I'm not as convinced as some might be about the original jig mystique - I think once you get the right tension on the right material you are good to go. That doesn't mean that it doesn't deserve its place in the audio hall of fame of course!!
 
I think I'm going to go for a pair that comes with the Quad 33 + 303 amp. I can't test them and the SN is unknown, but since the seller says there's a 6 month warranty, and the price is pretty good (1100€ shipping inc, which would be 800€ for the 57's after I sell the amp and pre) I think it's worth the risk.
After all, if they're in really bad shape soundwise, I can try to claim warranty.. and if not, surely they're easy to sell at 800€...
 
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