Harbeth P3ESR & ATC SCM 7.

[Shane2468]

Both of these speakers have a few things in common.

For example. They both have sealed cabinets, low sensitivity and an easy impedance load for the amplifier.

For now, I'm curious to know from owners. Have some of you on here compared the two speakers, in the same system? If so, what results did you get?

S.

 

[amazement]

I have the Harbeths right now, I've had ATC 19's in the past. Both sound very different.
The ATC can be a relentless tiring sound at times, great for a studio perhaps. I don't know about the current ATC 19 are like, I had the previous version. Built like a tank though and difficult to destroy, like lots of watts up 'em.
The Harbeths are true to what's being played but in a more forgiving way and image much better than the ATC.
The ATC weigh a back breaking tonne.
I never felt my Naims and ATC were a happy marriage.
I don't know about the ATC 7's.

 

[Martyn Miles]

I can only report on the P3-RSRs.
I've had many small loudspeakers and the Harbeths are the best I've heard.
ATCs have a particular 'sound', as you may well have picked up.

I can only say listen to both the speakers you've shortlisted and make
up your own mind...

 

[RossB]

I currently have a pair of P3ESRs sitting in my listening room next to a pair of Proac D18s. I also have owned the previous version of SCM7s and SCM11s in the past.

Very different speakers. The ATCs are fairly neutral with a slightly dry character, but need a solid amount of power and some volume to sound their best. When used with a decent amp and allowed to breathe they can sound stunning, and very dynamic, but are less good at lower volumes.

The P3ESRs are a mixed bag. As everyone knows, they have a lovely, seductive midrange - possibly the best I've heard, a smooth, liquid sound and surprising amounts of bass for a tiny speaker. They also have some treble roll off, and can sound a little restrained or polite, and lack real bite and attack when the music calls for it. They are not particularly dynamic speakers (though long term owners always dispute this). For small scale jazz and classical they are superb - for big orchestral, hard bop jazz or rock music I find them less compelling. Also, that seductive, addictive midrange is, I believe, an additive effect. The P3ESRs give this beautiful liquid midrange effect on all music, however badly recorded, so I regard them as not exactly neutral.

I am still assessing whether to keep my P3ESRs. I probably will. I am already addicted to that unnaturally beautiful midrange and will just have to live with the reduced sense of scale and dynamics.

Against the ATCs, if your tastes tend towards the drier, more neutral end of the spectrum, you have a good solid state amp and like to listen at higher volumes, you may prefer the SCM7s.

 

[Martyn Miles]

If you contact Radlett Audio they can help.
They've compared the SCM7s to the 'ESRs and will give you
the opportunity to do the same.
The Prop. of Radlett, David Wren, has mentioned these two loudspeakers on the
Harbeth Users' Group Forum.

 

[topa]

The ATC need quite a high volume to come alive, which also requires a bit a oomph on the amp side. Below that threshold they can sound sterile. The Harbeths do better at low volume, and flat out quickly.

 

[Martyn Miles]

I currently have a pair of P3ESRs sitting in my listening room next to a pair of Proac D18s. I also have owned the previous version of SCM7s and SCM11s in the past.

Very different speakers. The ATCs are fairly neutral with a slightly dry character, but need a solid amount of power and some volume to sound their best. When used with a decent amp and allowed to breathe they can sound stunning, and very dynamic, but are less good at lower volumes.

The P3ESRs are a mixed bag. As everyone knows, they have a lovely, seductive midrange - possibly the best I've heard, a smooth, liquid sound and surprising amounts of bass for a tiny speaker. They also have some treble roll off, and can sound a little restrained or polite, and lack real bite and attack when the music calls for it. They are not particularly dynamic speakers (though long term owners always dispute this). For small scale jazz and classical they are superb - for big orchestral, hard bop jazz or rock music I find them less compelling. Also, that seductive, addictive midrange is, I believe, an additive effect. The P3ESRs give this beautiful liquid midrange effect on all music, however badly recorded, so I regard them as not exactly neutral.

I am still assessing whether to keep my P3ESRs. I probably will. I am already addicted to that unnaturally beautiful midrange and will just have to live with the reduced sense of scale and dynamics.

Against the ATCs, if your tastes tend towards the drier, more neutral end of the spectrum, you have a good solid state amp and like to listen at higher volumes, you may prefer the SCM7s.

For me, the midrange is what it's about.
All loudspeakers are compromises, and Harbeth's set of compromises
work for me.

Midrange is the reason I own BC1s, in spite of their limitations.

Please don't let me influence you, Shane2468, just listen and decide.
Whatever the diverse opinions on this Forum, you have to live with your
decision...

 

[Shane2468]

Thanks, gentleman.

S.

 

[Tony L]

I currently have a pair of P3ESRs sitting in my listening room next to a pair of Proac D18s. I also have owned the previous version of SCM7s and SCM11s in the past.

How do you think both compare to the admittedly far larger ProAc character-wise? I very much like ProAc's small stand mounts such as the 1SC, D1 and various Tabblettes. I know I'm not a small ported box fan in general, but these are great little speakers and capable of pretty astonishing results with good kit upstream.

 

[Martyn Miles]

How do you think both compare to the admittedly far larger ProAc character-wise? I very much like ProAc's small stand mounts such as the 1SC, D1 and various Tabblettes. I know I'm not a small ported box fan in general, but these are great little speakers and capable of pretty astonishing results with good kit upstream.

ProAc makes me think of Celef.

Stuart Tyler is selling a small Harbeth/LS3/5a type speaker.
The LS8.
It might be worth checking out...

 

[Tony L]

ProAc makes me think of Celef.

Stuart Tyler is selling a small Harbeth/LS3/5a type speaker.
The LS8.
It might be worth checking out...

Indeed, he seems to sell them through eBay, here is a closed listing. They look really interesting, not least due to them being the only Tyler design I can think of that is a sealed box. I'd love to hear a pair.

 

[dan m]

The P3ESRs are a mixed bag. As everyone knows, they have a lovely, seductive midrange - possibly the best I've heard, a smooth, liquid sound and surprising amounts of bass for a tiny speaker. They also have some treble roll off, and can sound a little restrained or polite, and lack real bite and attack when the music calls for it. They are not particularly dynamic speakers (though long term owners always dispute this). For small scale jazz and classical they are superb - for big orchestral, hard bop jazz or rock music I find them less compelling.... I am already addicted to that unnaturally beautiful midrange and will just have to live with the reduced sense of scale and dynamics.

This agrees with my experience from an extended home dem. Beautiful with small jazz combos and the female voice, but not for rock or electronica. They simply felt slow to me, and no matter how nice they could sound with some material they were not a sufficient all rounder for me to make the switch. I would really like to demo ATCs at some point, but they are hard to find in the US.

 

[Martyn Miles]

This agrees with my experience from an extended home dem. Beautiful with small jazz combos and the female voice, but not for rock or electronica. They simply felt slow to me, and no matter how nice they could sound with some material they were not a sufficient all rounder for me to make the switch. I would really like to demo ATCs at some point, but they are hard to find in the US.

I would generally agree with the above.

I don't like Electronica or Rock music.
The type of music I play, female voice, folk and orchestral suits the 'ESRs.

 

[RossB]

How do you think both compare to the admittedly far larger ProAc character-wise? I very much like ProAc's small stand mounts such as the 1SC, D1 and various Tabblettes. I know I'm not a small ported box fan in general, but these are great little speakers and capable of pretty astonishing results with good kit upstream.

I should also mention that I have owned Proac D2s, Studio 110s and Tablette 50 Signatures, as well as my current D18s so I am very familiar with the Proac sound, and also like them a lot.

The Proacs have their own distinctive character, they can sound a little lean if used with the wrong electronics. I use Exposure amps, which have a darker, warmer, but dynamic character which suits them.

Heard in isolation, the Proacs sound excellent - fast, dynamic, reasonably rich sounding, although a slightly two dimensional character and a slightly lighter tonal balance. Had the P3ESRs not come up at a great price, I would undoubtedly have happily lived with the D18s for quite a while. Naturally, being floorstanders, they produce a greater sense of scale and more bass depth, although the D18s do not have a particularly prominent bass and work quite well in my small study without boom.

The Harbeths, on the other hand, have a more three dimensional (if smaller scale) sound, and have much more tonal depth, with the richer, liquid midrange which really nothing else I have heard compares to. Swapping back and forth between the P3ESRs and the D18s, the latter immediately sound dry, thin and tonally threadbare compared with the Harbeths - but this is only an immediate (and short-term) impression from a direct A/B comparison. After a while, depending on the music, the Harbeths can sound strangely muted, and switching back to the Proacs, there is a loss of tonal richness but also a heightened sense of speed, excitement and dynamics.

The Proacs lack the tonal richness and beauty of the Harbeths. But there is also a layer of music that the Harbeths don't quite reproduce either, particularly when the music calls for big dynamic peaks or fast driving rhythms.

The Proacs are probably the more complete speakers. Take the Harbeths out of the system, re-adapt to the Proacs, and they sound harmonically full as well as dynamic. It's just that taking the Harbeths out of the system with that beautiful, luscious midrange is like taking away an addictive drug, and I'm not sure it is possible.

 

[Singslinger]

How do you think both compare to the admittedly far larger ProAc character-wise? I very much like ProAc's small stand mounts such as the 1SC, D1 and various Tabblettes. I know I'm not a small ported box fan in general, but these are great little speakers and capable of pretty astonishing results with good kit upstream.

I've been a user of the SC1, Tablette Anniversary, D2 and D18 in the past, and currently own the K6 and D48 which are used in separate systems. Yes the SC1s, TAs and D2s are lovely, entertaining and above all, exciting speakers that convey the energy and spirit of music, IMHO much better than the P3ESRs.

The TA was used in rotation with the P3ESR and Spendor SA1 for about 18 months, after which the P3ESR was sold as I found it too boring and bland.

In my experience, the P3ESR is speaker that sounds impressive at first listen and even for a bit longer than that, but ultimately fails to excite if used over an extended period.

After jettisoning the P3ESR, I wanted to give Harbeths another try, so I switched to the bigger Monitor 30.1, which was used in rotation with a Spendor SP 1/2R for a year.

The Harbeths again failed to satisfy and I was forced to admit to myself that I had bought based on reputation instead of careful, prolonged auditioning.

Amps used were Naims, Accuphase and Jeff Rowland, while sources were all digital - PS Audio Perfectwave transport and DAC II, Jeff Rowland Aeris and Naim NDX.

I haven't listened to the ATC.

 

[RossB]

That is interesting an interesting perspective. Of the smaller Proacs - the 1SC, TAs, D18s and D2s - which did you feel were the best?

 

[droodzilla]

I currently have a pair of P3ESRs sitting in my listening room next to a pair of Proac D18s. I also have owned the previous version of SCM7s and SCM11s in the past.

Very different speakers. The ATCs are fairly neutral with a slightly dry character, but need a solid amount of power and some volume to sound their best. When used with a decent amp and allowed to breathe they can sound stunning, and very dynamic, but are less good at lower volumes.

The P3ESRs are a mixed bag. As everyone knows, they have a lovely, seductive midrange - possibly the best I've heard, a smooth, liquid sound and surprising amounts of bass for a tiny speaker. They also have some treble roll off, and can sound a little restrained or polite, and lack real bite and attack when the music calls for it. They are not particularly dynamic speakers (though long term owners always dispute this). For small scale jazz and classical they are superb - for big orchestral, hard bop jazz or rock music I find them less compelling. Also, that seductive, addictive midrange is, I believe, an additive effect. The P3ESRs give this beautiful liquid midrange effect on all music, however badly recorded, so I regard them as not exactly neutral.

I am still assessing whether to keep my P3ESRs. I probably will. I am already addicted to that unnaturally beautiful midrange and will just have to live with the reduced sense of scale and dynamics.

Against the ATCs, if your tastes tend towards the drier, more neutral end of the spectrum, you have a good solid state amp and like to listen at higher volumes, you may prefer the SCM7s.

I've owned both for exended periods too and this just about sums up my experience. The ATC SCM7s can kick surprisingly hard for their size on rock music. I wouldn't call the Harbeths over-polite but there is a sense of reduced dynamics. They ar better than the SCM7s for low-volume listening, late at night - a necessity for me as I live in a terrace. Both are great speakers but,on balance, I keep coming back to the Harbeths as I can listen to them all day and all night without fatigue, and they have a delightfully organic sound.

 

[Tony L]

FWIW I came to the conclusion that the little ProAcs were voiced for tube amps, and it is in this context I personally like them the best. Sit them on the end of a nice EL34 or KTxx push pull amp and any tendancy for brightness vanishes, the mid opens right up and the bass is far more than one could possibly expect from such a small box. It is no great coincidence that ProAc used to dem them with top-end Audio Research, I suspect it is in this context Stewart Tyler designed them.

Harbeth's Alan Shaw is a very outspoken member of the 'all competent amps sound the same' crowd and IIRC uses a Quad 34/606 (which in fairness is a very nice amp IMHO). As such I'd expect Harbeth speakers to be rather more solid-state biased than ProAc.

 

[Martyn Miles]

FWIW I came to the conclusion that the little ProAcs were voiced for tube amps, and it is in this context I personally like them the best. Sit them on the end of a nice EL34 or KTxx push pull amp and any tendancy for brightness vanishes, the mid opens right up and the bass is far more than one could possibly expect from such a small box. It is no great coincidence that ProAc used to dem them with top-end Audio Research, I suspect it is in this context Stewart Tyler designed them.

Harbeth's Alan Shaw is a very outspoken member of the 'all competent amps sound the same' crowd and IIRC uses a Quad 34/606 (which in fairness is a very nice amp IMHO). As such I'd expect Harbeth speakers to be rather more solid-state biased than ProAc.

I use a Quad 34/303 with my 'ESRs, but I am not in the 'Alan Shaw' camp.

A sound engineer friend, using a pair of Tannoy DC2000s, employed a Quad 405 and a Crimson amp. to drive the speakers.
Both were used with a passive preamp and a CD player.

There is no doubt the '2000s sounded better to my ears using the Crimson.

Perhaps I ought to take round my little Harbeths and try the two amplifiers...

 

[Tigerjones]

I think the beauty of the ESRs is that they do everything very well within their physical limitations. They aren't amazing in any areas and I've owned small speakers that do certain things better, but often at the detriment of other areas. The ProAc 1SC is an example of this, which, in my opinion are one trick ponnies and over prolonged listening I just couldn't live with them.

I haven't owned ATC SCM 7 but I did own the SCM11 (older style) for a few weeks and found them to be very dry and relentless, not for me at all.

The Harbeths are pretty easy to drive and don't seem too fussy about the amplifier although the 10 Watts of Sugden did at times struggle, although in some ways a wonderful combination. The cleanest sound I have had with the ESRs was with 8 watts of Eastern Electric Mini Max.

I disagree that the ESRs aren't any good with electronic music, I have no complaints in this area, again taking in to account the physical limitations of a small box and driver.

For me they're the best small speaker I've owned and I've owned a lot of speakers.