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Harbeth P3es2 & Leben CS300

A

ampman

pfm Member
Has anyone heard/used this combination? How was it? How would it be in a small room with nearfield listening at sensible volumes? The Cs300 is 12W and these Harbeths quite insensitive, though most say easy to drive.

Any thoughts appreciated.
 
In general the Leben is a very open and transparent sounding amp with a forward character when compared to most solid-state amps out there, the excellent LFD included. I have listened to the CS600 driving some Harbeth 40.1s and although the amp may not have the juice to drive the speakers optimally(at high volume levels), the sound is excellent at low to moderate levels. Very airy and transparent sort of presentation.

Coming back to the P3ES2, although the speakers may appear insensitive on paper, it is relatively easy to drive in real life. I guess you may have read about this on various forums. As a separate matter, being a small bookshelf the P3ES2 has its limits in terms of loudness. Drive them(or any small bookshelves for that matter) past their SPL limits and they will start to exhibit distortion and lose it. In summary small bookshelves(such as the P3's) are designed for low to moderate volume listening and as such, a small amp is usually adequate in most cases, unless one is talking about Dynaudios or some other difficult speakers which require some current due to low impedances. There wouldn't be much issues to worry about if considering the CS300 for the P3ES2 unless you want to crank it up loud. In a small room at sensible volume levels, no issues.
 
It sounded pretty good, but ultimately my Sonneteer Orton was better. The Leben was a bit too harsh for me (great bass, though), I just love silk-like smoothness combined with great dynamics of the Sonneteer. It sounds very "sophisticated" to me - smooth, detailed, but not aggressive in highs, dynamic and engaging. Soundstage is also pretty good (dual mono design).
For SHL5 I suggest listening to some Sonneteer amps (Orton if funds allow, but Alabaster is also very good).
 
Thanks Adam,

I've a heap of Naim to get shot of so should come out in front.

The reviews I've read sound very promising......:)

Oh, I'll keep the CB Nait 2, it sounds amazing with the SLH5s lacking only OOMPH.
 
One obvious problem here is that we may all have differing opinions of what 'loud' actually is....some people's 'loud' is another's 'quiet' (I joke not). As for the Leben being 'harsh'.....that does sound as if the poor thing was being overdriven as it is usually pretty smooth. Although it depends on what valves were being used. I don't really see any solid state amp as being comparable...you either like ss or you like valves. They simply do not sound that similar, at least to my ears.
 
AdamWysokinski said:
It sounded pretty good, but ultimately my Sonneteer Orton was better. The Leben was a bit too harsh for me (great bass, though), I just love silk-like smoothness combined with great dynamics of the Sonneteer. It sounds very "sophisticated" to me - smooth, detailed, but not aggressive in highs, dynamic and engaging. Soundstage is also pretty good (dual mono design).
For SHL5 I suggest listening to some Sonneteer amps (Orton if funds allow, but Alabaster is also very good).
Click to expand...

Adam, did you get to try the 300X? I borrowed one and thought it rather good.

Steve
 
Steve, it was the CS300 with upgraded tubes (don't remember their brand, though; some NOS I think). I didn't mean it was bad, in fact it was pretty good - fast, energetic and with really good bass. However, the whole presentation was a bit too "raw" for me, it lacked a bit of this finesse or subtlety that the Orton has in spades. Funny thing, but the Leben was more like an archetypical SS gear, while the Orton has more qualities typically attributed to tube amps.

Regards,
Adam
 
Adam, that's interesting. The 300X had some Mullards from memory. I found similar to your description overall but it didn't seem to have any rawness or edge so I was curious as to what the differences may have been. Always tricky with all the other factors. They are beautifully made and I love the retro look.

I ended up a Berning which I've been very happy with, it provides everything I like without drawing attention to itself. A remote would be nice though, and it's no way a looker. :)
 
Haven't heard the Leben with P3's but here is another vote for Sonneteer. I am driving P3ESR's with an Alabaster and it sounds excellent.
 
...and here's another Sonneteer fan. (eventhough I don't own a Sonneteer anymore)

I love both the Alabaster & Campion!
They're available for over 14/15 years now, practically unchanged, which imho sais a lot!

I love the mix of clear, detailed treble with the silky, smooth class-A sound that reminded me of the good old MF A1 for example.

Never heard the Leben though.
 
Unfortunately I can't agree with ryder's characterisation of the P3ES2s as easy to drive. If they are anything like the earlier HL-P3s (same 4 ohm nominal impedance) the combination of low sensitivity, low impedance dips and complex crossover may upset some amps (NVA AP20 in my case).

The P3ESRs are much better, not exactly an easy load but not a problem load either. The NVA AP20 did struggle with them a bit, but was not unlistenable as with the HL-P3s.

Can't say how this will translate to valve amps - cf. Tony L's experience with SHL5s and a low-powered valve amp where variations in the speaker's impedance resulted in peaks and dips in the system's frequency response. On the other hand the Leben/Harbeth combination seems to be very well-loved and certainly worth a listen.

Depending on the price of the amp, though, I'd be tempted to spend some of the money going to bigger Harbeths - say Monitor 30 - that are genuinely easy to drive and have the better resolution that comes from their funky plastic cone material.
 
You could be better off still considering something more sensitive, such as the high efficiency versions of the Audionotes....but then costs start to run away. I use a 10 watt valve amp....but with a 100db, high impedance, speaker.I wouldn't want to drive an underpowered car, and I am personally wary of the ''12 watts drives 86db speakers just fine'' approach.I find valve amps just love truly high efficient speakers. Otherwise, the suggestion for a solid state amp makes sense. Tricky question really..how load is loud?
 
ampman said:
Has anyone heard/used this combination? How was it? How would it be in a small room with nearfield listening at sensible volumes? The Cs300 is 12W and these Harbeths quite insensitive, though most say easy to drive.

Any thoughts appreciated.
Click to expand...

What is the size of the room ? What type of music do you generally listen to ?
 
Has anyone heard Harbeths driven by a very powerful solid state amp - say in excess of 150 watts at 8 ohms. Ok this would perhaps be silly for the P3es2 but I wonder how the added power would give solidity and assurance to the 5's, 7's or 30's. I can ask this on another thread if this is the wrong place, but since we're talking about the relative values of valves I thought I'd mention it. A comparison between a low powered but very good valve amp and some huge Krell or Chord style beast would be intriguing. I know Alan Shaw says extra power is useless, but he says a lot of funny things about amps.
 
honmanm said:
Depending on the price of the amp, though, I'd be tempted to spend some of the money going to bigger Harbeths - say Monitor 30 - that are genuinely easy to drive and have the better resolution that comes from their funky plastic cone material.
Click to expand...

The P3ESR also has the "funky plastic cone material" or Radial2 as the Harbethians (myself being one) call it.
 
EE, not in excess of 150W... however I have a HackerNAP that (I think*) delivers more than 100W into 8 ohms, and have heard my P3ESRs on Barrymidd's ARC D125 (110Wpc).

The P3ESRs are about 2dbW less efficient than the other Harbeths so the results would be similar to putting bigger Harbeths on a (wild guess) 75Wpc amp.

These amps are certainly powerful enough to drive the P3ESRs in a normal living room and in neither case there any audible amp distress. The thing with class B transistor amps is they usually sound horrible when they clip, valves seem to be a lot more forgiving there (also I suspect that class B transistor amps often have under-specced power supplies and the high-volume nastiness is a result of the power supply not being up to its task).

However that doesn't really answer your question, as the P3ESRs don't extend far enough into the bass region to have much that needs to be controlled. And also IMO "control" is more to do with current sourcing capability that ultimate power rating.

(*Calculating power at V*V/R - where V = max RMS voltage that won't get clipped by the 45V rails on the FE I get 125W, but that doesn't seem right).
 
Elephantears said:
Has anyone heard Harbeths driven by a very powerful solid state amp - say in excess of 150 watts at 8 ohms. Ok this would perhaps be silly for the P3es2 but I wonder how the added power would give solidity and assurance to the 5's, 7's or 30's. I can ask this on another thread if this is the wrong place, but since we're talking about the relative values of valves I thought I'd mention it. A comparison between a low powered but very good valve amp and some huge Krell or Chord style beast would be intriguing. I know Alan Shaw says extra power is useless, but he says a lot of funny things about amps.
Click to expand...

Specifications on paper can be very misleading. My Sony AV amp is rated at 140W into 8 ohms and it can't hold a candle to Naim's(or LFD's) 50W or 60W integrateds. I have no qualms that the Leben CS300 will work well with the P3ES2 at average volume levels although Honmanm reported the NVA AP20 can't drive the ES2 optimally. The AP20 is probably a low powered amp with a weak power supply just like the Sony. I've tried the AP70 with the SHL5s and the amp worked admirably well with the speakers. The LFD shows the AP70 the door to the exit though.
 
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