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Goodbye, Naim!

Discussion in 'audio' started by tvheadhunter, May 3, 2016.

  1. venton

    venton pfm Member

    I don't think I said timing is nonsense.
     
  2. Ragaman

    Ragaman Mentalist

    Do you know what prat is an abreviation of

    What i find odd is, Naim gear gets accused of this tag yet in my experience does allow full flow of the music which i enterpret as timing.

    I have encountered many a non Naim system with such a sound, my Rotel is easily on a par with my Naim in this department.
     
  3. venton

    venton pfm Member

    Timing I grant is essential. But Rhythm? That's just silly. I'm not sure if Naim gear get's 'accused' of Prat- it's a daft term some Naim owners use to make themselves feel important. I was answering the guy who said what does a Naim amp sounds like. My point is, it sounds like the music to me.
     
  4. Ragaman

    Ragaman Mentalist

    Maybe you should google the word rhythm before dismissing it's importance to music playback. I'm just trying to imagine playing my Rock music with the rhythmic drive removed, AC/DC may dissagree on your enterpretation. Watch a DC live show if you want to hear rhythm in music & pace for that matter

    Rhythm, silly :confused:

    How odd.
     
  5. suzywong

    suzywong Wot, no electrons?

    Actually, I used to have that as my sig.......


    Then I bought some olive boxes........


    I am ashamed.......



    NOT!:D
     
  6. venton

    venton pfm Member

    As in Naim amps possesing rhythm. I'm a musician, I assure you its me who has the rhythm not the amp.
     
    martin dawson and narabdela like this.
  7. Maxbertola

    Maxbertola pfm Member

    :D

    M
     
  8. Maxbertola

    Maxbertola pfm Member

    :(

    M
     
  9. Maxbertola

    Maxbertola pfm Member

    I think I am aware of how 'Naim' works; and I mean not a brand or a piece of gear, but how a kind of 'world' is.

    I bought my Nait in 1984/5, don't remember. A guy in the trade had started to sell them, I took advantage of a second hand unit. Its build, the clarity of the circuits, the essentiality of its concept was praised. We all came from Japanese HiFi, or Nad, Proton, or big costly boxes.

    To be honest, I was not fully aware of what sucked me into it: I was a graduated musician with also a certain experience in pop and rock, but never consciously associated Naim – or any other brand – to truthfulness in music. I had spent long years in the cult of Acoustic Research, but it was mainly the ads with classical musicians in it, the smooth sound that the press opposed to the JBL's; in a way, it was like with Beatles and Rolling Stones.

    I don't know what made me stay into Naim: I moved from the Nait to a 42.5, came a SNAPS and here I was, facing the Power Supply Thing: probably, a very clever mix of technical objectivity and marketing ability. There could be no rational doubt that upgrading the PSU would better the performance, so I did hear a better performance - even when better performance meant more or deeper bass or a slightly more focused image, two things not necessarily related to music.

    I've been away from Naim for some years, then came back ten years ago. In these ten years I seem to have made up for the hiatus in excess, having bought and sold a foolish number of things, including the repetition of a few purchases; it has been like if I wanted to explore the most of it, what my funds allowed, what my curiosity required. I think I have probably made a fool of myself a number of times here or on the Naim forum, but I don't care: this is not like if it was Foreign Politics or Global Economics, it's just one of those innocently mad addictions that keep some people tied to a band, a car, a comic character, a beer: who cares?

    Now I have decided to free myself a little from all this – all this including my presence on the Naim forum, which – despite the average PFM vulgata – is full of smart, clever, cultivated people who love music and good reproduction of it, and where I have learned good english and a lot of interesting things. I have received unimaginably good customer service, and my feelings about NaimWorld are still very deep. Only, I want to loosen the leash a little.. A leash that none will ever be able to tell if it's been made by me or by them.

    Do I really care about Naim's sound quality? Do I really compare it to real music, to other brands? Last night I took my recently bought rega Apollo to a friend's place, we listened to music on his Croft pre and Albarry 408s into Marten Design Monks, finally comparing it to his CDX2 (I have had three CDX2s): well, there was no doubt that they were different – the CDX2 was clearer, more 'open', more flat, less 'analogue', and a tad less 'listenable'. I wasn't shocked. I have bought a rega Brio 3 and an Apollo as a 'mental back door' for this moment of uncertainty and for the future. Last night I took my 202/200 to another friend, and it was extremely enjoyable on his Harbeth SHL5s, so I could choose to keep them and buy Harbeths. Who knows? The moment we let just our ears decide, we discover new things. When I have removed the HiCapDR and the NAPSC from the 202, I have suddenly found it did sound as pleasant as before, perhaps better..

    Forced resignations, escapes, sharp cuts are always a sign of doubt. Freedom is more - er, free.

    My opinion only
    M
     
  10. S-Man

    S-Man Kinkless Tetrode Admirer

    I have never owned any Naim equipment but I find them the most interesting audio company in the market. My particular interest is amplifier design and I have tried most, if not all, of the design techniques that set Naim apart from most of the other brands. IMO some of these differences result in a sound that has some very appealing results, some are a step too far for my tastes. I've also experimented with NCC200s which are yet another flavour of the Naim approach.
    I have about 5 different amps to play around with and the one using some Naim techniques is the one I end up listening to most. The others are more hifi, more detailed, clearer, more spacious sounding etc etc. When my hifi pals come round for a listen they usually choose the other amps over the Naim-like one - I suspect for exactly the attributes listed above. But I always end up back with the Naim-like because I can listen to music all day long on it. It also seems to make sense of tracks I've never heard before, whereas with the more "hifi" amps I end up playing familiar music because the unfamiliar ones get a bit irritating after a while.

    So... my conclusion is that Naim adds some ingredients into their amps, that are more or less unique - and there is something innately "right" about this. However I think they go too far and end up with a marmite amp. Hence all this love/hate stuff.

    As an aside, all these ingredients have subtle measurable effects well below the 0.1% THD level that H Leak thought was the audible threshold. I disagree with his claim.
     
  11. Ragaman

    Ragaman Mentalist

    I agree, i assumed from your posts you were suggesting rhythm within music was silly, obviously i misinterpeted your posts as this made no sense to me.

    My point was, from experience, equipment can kill such important qualities due to their design & "tuning", i have found Naim to get out of the way & allow these qualities through & in my personal opinion is why the company has the label of pace rhythm & timing, it's not to do with the amp "adding" this IMO, it's more to do with the amp allowing it full flow.

    Other compamies also allow for this but to a lesser degree i feel, my Rotel set up has obvious emphasis in comparison, sounds more forward than my Nait 3 which allows for a more solid natural sound to my ears, My rega has similar qualities but again are muted by comparison.

    I would imagine, after reading plenty of articles from Juilan vereker, his intention was to alow full reign to the music rather than restraining it, which i seem to find in other componnents by comparison. A warts 'n all aproach & is probably why some hate it & some love it, there seems no middle ground with Naim users, i suppose it depends if you want to hear music as intended, good or bad, or if you prefer a more homoginized version to suit your tastes.

    Newer Naim offerings are far more easy on the ear & less full on i found, tamed, which wasn't to my tastes.
     
  12. venton

    venton pfm Member

    It occurred to me that really I shouldn't comment on the Naim sound. Because I fitted the RSL boards to my preamp and Tpr4 unit to my hicap, I'm not listening to Naim anymore. I do sometimes forget this as the kit looks identical. But each of these additions bought big increases in musical enjoyment.
    Sometimes I wonder what higher level kit might bring, but it's hard to imagine as everything sounds so good to me. I think this Rsl nac 72 with Tpr4 would give some higher Naim kit a run for its money.
     
  13. Ragaman

    Ragaman Mentalist

    The title does indeed fit, Naim by name only then.
     
  14. venton

    venton pfm Member

    My 180 amp is original as is my cdi, and they do kick ass to be fair to Naim.
     
  15. Mikeandvan

    Mikeandvan Banned

    Should make a film outa this. 'Goodbye, Naim'. Goodbye mr naim, 'Leaving Naim'.
     
  16. mercalia

    mercalia pfm Member

    I think there needs to be a Naim forum for all those Naim-ites to drool in? Keep them out of the rest of our way?
     
  17. Sloop John B

    Sloop John B pfm Member


    Interesting post Max.
    Although I do frequent the Naim forum and agree wholeheartedly with your positive assessment of it, I do think it is one of the factors that fuels the anti-Naim sentiment here.

    I certainly hope you still have your Weetabix though! ;)


    SJB
     
  18. joe9407

    joe9407 actress/activist

    Ciao Max,

    To many of my fellow Americans, "freedom" means "not listening to other people" -- but with that said, I'd mention that there's a great hifi dealer here in New York whose only solid-state offerings are from Naim and Rega, but whose main business is selling tube gear: Line Magnetic, Leben, Shindo, etc.

    How about a Leben integrated amp and some Devore Fidelity speakers, made right across the river from me in Brooklyn, New York? (The Devores work perfectly well with Naim, in case you chart a course back to those shores.) Just an idea.

    All best,
    Joe
     
  19. JimDog

    JimDog pfm Member

    Did you own a Naim DAC?
    Did you use a PSU with it?
    What did you use as a source?
     
  20. JemHayward

    JemHayward pfm Member

    No, I borrowed a Naim DAC for a short period, from a friend who was away on holiday, as they were at the time in short supply, so my dealer couldn't arrange a home demo, so I think it was just used 'straight' without an external PSU. I liked it, but it really wasn't any better than my Linn DS direct, or my preferred option, at the time of Linn DS via a Behringer DEQ2496 (and room correction, so not a fair comparison). I decided to wait for the MDAC, before making the decision, as it was quite a lot of money. The MDAC (finally!) arrived and I could then replace the NAC82 and the DAC and by then I was using a Squeezebox Touch as my source. The sudden uplift in quality was really quite dramatic, but I wasn't really able to make a direct fair comparison between NDAC and MDAC with same source etc, as I was using USB into the MDAC, and no preamp, vs the NDAC and a Preamp, via either optical, or coax. My feeling is losing the preamp was the big leap forward, though my friend with the NDAC has moved on to a 'digital preamp' solution now though not sure what they use now as I've lost touch with them in recent years, as they have moved abroad.
     

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