Getting subwoofers for the first time

[Robert]

Popped the R3s in yesterday.........no no no no.......lovely bass integration but I still can't understand the HF balance on these. All that hissing, swishhing and tizzing.
How can they get the balance so right with the LS50 and wreck it on the R Series?
Still, reviewers love them and they sell....hey ho. I notice that R Series have the full Cinema package thing going on with mains and satelites and Atmos boxes. Perhaps that explains why the tweeter appears to be set 3dB too high!

 

[Amber Audio]

Popped the R3s in yesterday.........no no no no.......lovely bass integration but I still can't understand the HF balance on these. All that hissing, swishhing and tizzing.
How can they get the balance so right with the LS50 and wreck it on the R Series?
Still, reviewers love them and they sell....hey ho. I notice that R Series have the full Cinema package thing going on with mains and satelites and Atmos boxes. Perhaps that explains why the tweeter appears to be set 3dB too high!

Likely aiming for some of MA and B&W’s home cinema buyer market share, why sell 2 speaker boxes and maybe a sub now and then when you can flog a package with a couple subs and 7/9/11 boxes.

 

[Robert]

Likely aiming for some of MA and B&W’s home cinema buyer market share, why sell 2 speaker boxes and maybe a sub now and then when you can flog a package with a couple subs and 7/9/11 boxes.

A shame as they are quite outstandingly good in many areas and really can disappear....until a close recorded vocal with a bit of dynamic compression comes along and it's all breath and sibilance.

 

[misterdog]

If you get the sub(s) well integrated you get a lot of spatial info from the recording in this octave too.

This will test your subs. and how well your room is constructed.

 

[tuga]

I'm listening at about 1.5m and the LS50s are up on 28" stands. More like the situation you'd see on a mixing console than a typical listening room.
I can play the LS50 way louder than I find comfortable without obvious driver distress.
Remember that we have far more tolerance to LF distortion than at mid frequencies.

This is another example where listening in a defined setting is essential as the distortion graphs alone don't tell anything like the full story.

I guess it depends on other factors too like the programme/genre or listener expectations. But at 1.5m listening distance it's likely that as you say distortion levels are lowish enough not to be objectionable.

Popped the R3s in yesterday.........no no no no.......lovely bass integration but I still can't understand the HF balance on these. All that hissing, swishhing and tizzing.
How can they get the balance so right with the LS50 and wreck it on the R Series?
Still, reviewers love them and they sell....hey ho. I notice that R Series have the full Cinema package thing going on with mains and satelites and Atmos boxes. Perhaps that explains why the tweeter appears to be set 3dB too high!

It's the LS50 tweeter (red/blue) which looks 3dB too hot, not the R3's (green/orange). The Meta seems to have addressed that issue.

 

[ToTo Man]

IIt's the LS50 tweeter (red/blue) which looks 3dB too hot, not the R3's (green/orange). The Meta seems to have addressed that issue.

Atkinson's measurements suggest otherwise. However, assuming the above graph is representative, then the hotness of the respective tweeters depends on which area of HF the individual listener is more sensitive to. I'd expect an elevated response between 2kHz-6kHz to result in a presentation that's comparatively forward, bright and perhaps hard, whereas an elevated response above 6kHz would contribute to hyper-detail and etching.

 

[Tony L]

I'd expect an elevated response between 2kHz-6kHz to result in a presentation that's comparatively forward, bright and perhaps hard, whereas an elevated response above 6kHz would contribute to hyper-detail and etching.

Agreed. “Treble” is way lower than most people think, really anything over about 8-10kHz is just the very highest sparkle, air etc. Very hard to even discern pitch up that high. A peak at 2-6kHz will push vocal sibilance, hi-hat and other drum kit metal work forward and make orchestral strings sound a bit screechy and hard. That isn’t how I hear LS50s though, so I question those measurements.

 

[Darren]

Agreed. “Treble” is way lower than most people think, really anything over about 8-10kHz is just the very highest sparkle, air etc. Very hard to even discern pitch up that high.

Thank God! I can only hear up to 12kHz nowadays. Wouldn't like to be missing out.

 

[tuga]

Atkinson's measurements suggest otherwise. However, assuming the above graph is representative, then the hotness of the respective tweeters depends on which area of HF the individual listener is more sensitive to. I'd expect an elevated response between 2kHz-6kHz to result in a presentation that's comparatively forward, bright and perhaps hard, whereas an elevated response above 6kHz would contribute to hyper-detail and etching.

Atkinson makes less accurate measurements than ASR's Klippel system, and he usually publishes listening window plots, not the on-axis response.
I don’t think that Stereophile’s reviewed the R3 either.

These are on-axis, 15˚and 30˚ anechoic measurements from Soundstage (the dip at around 55Hz is a room mode of the NRC's anechoic chamber):

Kef R3

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153


Kef LS50

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153


Kef LS50 Meta

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

 

[ToTo Man]

Atkinson makes less accurate measurements than ASR's Klippel system, and he usually publishes listening window plots, not the on-axis response.
I don’t think that Stereophile’s reviewed the R3 either.

These are on-axis, 15˚and 30˚ anechoic measurements from Soundstage (the dip at around 55Hz is a room mode of the NRC's anechoic chamber):

Kef R3

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153


Kef LS50

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153


Kef LS50 Meta

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

Interesting, the soundstage network measurements suggest the R3 is the warmest of the three KEF models? It does appear, however, to have an on-axis resonance at 8kHz, perhaps that's what Robert's hearing? @Robert, I don't suppose you could post your own measurements of your LS50 and R3 from your listening position? The more references we have the better!

 

[tuga]

Interesting, the soundstage network measurements suggest the R3 is the warmest of the three KEF models? It does appear, however, to have an on-axis resonance at 8kHz, perhaps that's what Robert's hearing? @Robert, I don't suppose you could post your own measurements of your LS50 and R3 from your listening position? The more references we have the better!

That resonance shows in Hi-Fi News' CSD plot.

Kef R3

https://www.hifinews.com/content/kef-r3-loudspeaker-lab-report

 

[tuga]

Massive mistake @ToTo Man the Soundstage plot I posted is from the Reference 3, not the R3... Sorry.

 

[ToTo Man]

Massive mistake @ToTo Man the Soundstage plot I posted is from the Reference 3, not the R3... Sorry.

Ah, not to worry!

 

[Robert]

Here is the Klippel predicted in room for the R3 - exactly as I hear it.

In essence you hear the blue area relative to the green (my scribbles). The tweeter is simply too high for an accurate monitor.

By contrast while the LS50 has a more lumpy response it room averages for better tonality, if you want neutral.

InkedKEF R3 Three-way stand mount Speaker CES-2034 Spinorama Predicted In-room Response Audio Measu.._LI by Rob Holt, on Flickr

 

[ToTo Man]

Here is the Klippel predicted in room for the R3 - exactly as I hear it.

In essence you hear the blue area relative to the green (my scribbles). The tweeter is simply too high for an accurate monitor.

By contrast while the LS50 has a more lumpy response it room averages for better tonality, if you want neutral.

InkedKEF R3 Three-way stand mount Speaker CES-2034 Spinorama Predicted In-room Response Audio Measu.._LI by Rob Holt, on Flickr

Not a bad looking response to be fair. The typical treble tone control on an amp would probably coincide with that area of elevated HF and help bring it down to a more neutral level. As a plug and play speaker I would however agree that they have too much treble out of the box, and I suspect would be quite jarring if you've just come from monitoring on a pair of HD600 'phones which have a lovely lush midband and comparatively polite top end.

 

[Robert]

Not a bad looking response to be fair. The typical treble tone control on an amp would probably coincide with that area of elevated HF and help bring it down to a more neutral level. As a plug and play speaker I would however agree that they have too much treble out of the box, and I suspect would be quite jarring if you've just come from monitoring on a pair of HD600 'phones which have a lovely lush midband and comparatively polite top end.

It's worse than that, I'm acclimatised to Quad ESL (63 & 57) and therefore anything amiss at the top end is really annoying!

 

[S-Man]

Atkinson makes less accurate measurements than ASR's Klippel system, and he usually publishes listening window plots, not the on-axis response.
I don’t think that Stereophile’s reviewed the R3 either.

These are on-axis, 15˚and 30˚ anechoic measurements from Soundstage (the dip at around 55Hz is a room mode of the NRC's anechoic chamber):

Kef R3

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153


Kef LS50

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153


Kef LS50 Meta

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

They look to have fixed the 2KHz+ issue in the LS50 with the Meta version.
Irrespective of the measurements it was a significant subjective limitation. I heard a pair (converted to 3-way using dual LF speakers) with a 3dB reduction centered around 2.5KHz and they sounded superb... very superb!

 

[Space is the Place]

Here is the Klippel predicted in room for the R3 - exactly as I hear it.

In essence you hear the blue area relative to the green (my scribbles). The tweeter is simply too high for an accurate monitor.

By contrast while the LS50 has a more lumpy response it room averages for better tonality, if you want neutral.

InkedKEF R3 Three-way stand mount Speaker CES-2034 Spinorama Predicted In-room Response Audio Measu.._LI by Rob Holt, on Flickr

Have you tried using the R3s with the subs\?

 

[Robert]

Have you tried using the R3s with the subs\?

I have and they work extremely well in terms of bass integration.
I have a Marantz 'landfill special' HT receiver on order which should land next week. That has full Audyssey room correction and the ability to high pass the main 'speakers with manual override if needed.
Will try that with the LS50 & R3. Last chance for R3 before I move them on.

 

[Robert]

They look to have fixed the 2KHz+ issue in the LS50 with the Meta version.
Irrespective of the measurements it was a significant subjective limitation. I heard a pair (converted to 3-way using dual LF speakers) with a 3dB reduction centered around 2.5KHz and they sounded superb... very superb!

The paper on the LS50 design is interesting, especially as it states that final voicing of the design was achieved through subjective tweaking and panel evaluation.
I rather like that little 2.5K bump, adds a little nip and push to vocals but you can of course flatten it out if preferred. BTW it's less apparent slightly off axis which is what both Kef and Andrew Jones of Elac insist you do with concentric drivers.