Getting out of Naim...
- Thread starter Rack Kit
- Start date
Erm, Garrard 401/Notts/DL110, AVI CD2000MC, Yaqin amp, 4 x ESL57s. Less than £2000. Nice nusic, as good as I've heard.
But beat that? No, just a different set of choices. I don't do this to beat anyone, it's for fun. If I want to beat anything, it's the perception that this has to be a high budget hobby.
"buy British , buy Naim" .... I have a NAS Hyperspace , Ekos tonearm , TE Groove phono stage , Avondale Grad1/TPX2 , Avondale modded (Naim)CD3 , Avondale mono amps , Avondale Rev1 speakers .... there very little Naim in there and its all British
No Naim, No Avondale, No?
Check your facts about the outsourcing before posting
I've done it.
Came on here all Naim guns ablazing, armed really only with my knowledge of how things were 15 years ago, and thought I wanted a full active SBL setup with an LP12 and a CDS3.
Everyone told me otherwise, i ignored them, bought a shedload of naim, tried to get it to work, realised my ears had changed in the last 20 years and bingo, 6 months on I now have a totally different system which is exactly the sound that works for me rather than what I thought I wanted, and gives me qualities that a Naim system just can't. In terms of all the regular dem-room sonic criteria it offers the same level of performance as a 500 series reference system but at a third or quarter of the price.
There's not much wrong with Naim though IMO. You pay for great residuals, longevity, support, a wide knowledgeable user base (if a little blind sighted
What does bother me though is the plethora of new products which get released monthly. It smacks of 'flavour of the month' marketing, much like your Canon digital cameras. There seem to be so many different naits and streamers and different CDPs now, Ive almost lost track. My suspicion is that there is now a mixture of great and not so great whereas 20 years ago everything from an ARO to a CDi and a Nac72 was a great product. The focused purity and simplicity of the company has been compromised. That said, I accept that this is modern day business and what one must do to prosper at a certain level and beyond.
Also the other thing that puts me off is the multiple box, never ending upgradeitis structure of it all which seems to afflict most users. Take a look at the forums and the endless "you need a hiline/555ps/252 to make it sound right" posts to witness what I refer to. It's my belief that a good system for a £1000 should be just that, a good system, which provides music for decades there onwards. It shouldn't need an IC or another power supply lavished on it to make it sound 'less harsh' for example. The prospect of always being able to add one more box which makes the old system sound 'broken' is one which IME inherently breeds disatisfaction and a focus on the gear rather than the musicians. Once you get to the 500 series it also seems that it is so damm tweaky and sensitive to setup. The slightest twist in a burndy or the slightest loosening of a Fraim spike and 60k's worth goes completely to pot. That would completely do my head in.
I think I also realised this time round that a lot of what attracted me to Naim in the old days was the small potting shed nature of the company, the slightly cultish looks and image and the esoteric underground nature of it all. But they moved away from that long ago now and other companies now like Tron and DV fullfill that image.
The last 3 paragraphs of course are all very subjective and my own personal feelings which won't apply to most people. The bottom line is always the sound and for many people, they still love the Naim groove which although radically different from the chrome sound, still seems to follow the same basic principles, albeit tweaked for a much larger audience. Use your ears and vote with your feet. I did, and just discovered that I wanted different things, preferably at more affordable prices as well.
Am a massive Naim fan and while i agree with most of your post and not so much with other parts you are one of the first people on here that as actually stated half decent reasons for not being a naim fan rather than trhey are just shite. I agree with the part about too many products released relatively fast and just hope they dont carry on this way much longer. I prefered naim as the " underground" kind of company myself rather that the one with massive adverts in all the mags. But as you said a company has to do whatever it can to make a success of its self and times have been easier than of recent. The part about the 500 series all going to pot if you dont set it up correctly though i cant agree with. Mine sounded just fine plonked on a cheap stand untill i bought the fraim. granted it does sound better now naim have set it up correctly and it sits on its proper stand but if you dont think finding the time to set up £60,000 is worth it then you are either silly or have money to burn.
Greg
2t5b
But at £60K the oem should oblige the vendor to ensure the experience is flawless with the only variable being room acoustics. Someone spending that lump on new hifi gear is relatively rare and should be looked after. It's unreasonable not to make clear to the buyer that further setup/support cost is necessary to enable it to work as designed. The buyer should be looked after better and unfortunately this is the sort of thing that sullies the brand and causes some to be vocally negative.
LOTUS HIFI
LOTUS Hifi
It's not just the Fraim though. You can read plenty of instances on the Naim forum where owners cite the CD555 as being very sensitive and it can easily sound bright and nasty, the 552 too. You need brain with brain, brawn with brawn and naim systems also seem to be very very sensitive to mains. The CDP's also change massively in sound when placed on different supports. I only got to the level of CDS3/XPS/52/SNAXO/250/250 but it seems that the higher end setups are very very sensitive at each and every stage of the chain and its not too difficult for the thing to go 'off'. Also you have to factor in the variation in samples (recent NAP500 thread) and also where a component is in its service life.
Owning my WTA/DV/Shahinian system has shown me a world that I didn't know existed. I can plonk the TT on most things, the DV amps go anywhere, the mains is just regular £10 densen leads, the cables and IC basic mogami and the whole thing just works regardless. When I tried three powerlines on it, it made sod all difference.
Greg
2t5b
but clearly post-sales maintenance is different from installation and setup as part of the sale. I.E. if a product is sold as having certain capabilities, at £60K it seems reasonable that the OEM and vendor in combination would see the sense in doing what they could to ensure satisfaction. It simply makes complete sense, akin to how one would expect to be treated if buying a £60K motor. Whether Naim like the comparison or not, they are pitching themselves at least in that Market (with its norms and expectations) if not beyond it. Clients of that type should be valued and cherished, not taken for granted and squeezed for a bit more cash.
There is not one piece of electrical/electronic equipment in my home for which the manufacturer has specified periodic servicing. TV, recorder box, DVD player, clocks, radios, computers, printers, mobile 'phones etc, etc.
As far as I'm aware, the only item I have needing expert servicing is the central heating boiler.
IMO, properly designed electronic kit should least for 15 years without the need for routine maintenance.
Gaius
pfm Member
Well, much of the Naim Chrome Bumper kit is a lot older than 15 years and still going strong without a service even if Naim recommend one, I have for example a 42.5 which sounds fresh as a daisy and has never been touched.
Also Les you do rather well, as do Naim, on the whole concept of service/ upgrade/mod.
I'm sure most would agree Naim kit is very well built and does last.
Gaius
pfm Member
A point well made.
I thought that the sale of the product was supposed to include setting it up.
We have our gas & heating on a maintenance contract and the bloke from the gas board comes around every year and gives it the once-over. Last time he replaced the timing controller.
We have a number of computers, and they are always needing something doing.
We have a Sky box and it had to be replaced a while back, so I've now got a spare one just in case.
I've had a couple of iPods go wrong.
My Naim kit is pretty solid, by comparison. There is the general self-maintanence (re-inserting plugs and suchlike), but otherwise it seems fine. My amp is probably due a re-cap, and I've got a couple of spare transports for my CD player.
Invariably, when owners ask me for a service on CB pre-amps in particular, my answer is that as there's little to degrade, it's best to save their cash.
Avondale is primarily involved with upgrading rather than routine replacement of similar components so the point that we do well financially out of service is an inaccurate one.
I agree with the last point in that Naim kit is well made and does last.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Interestingly, I understand that the Naim servicing interval has now increased to fifteen years; at least for the upper echelon stuff.
Serving of quality audio, as opposed to other electronic kit, is more to retain or renew the sound quality it was conceived to deliver, rather than be a hard and fast rule for longevity. Guess this usually concerns the cap's, which do deteriorate sonically.
naimplayer
Aspiring to be a halfwit.
My 25 + year old CB 32.5/Hi/250 is about to have its first ever service/tweak. It does sound a little out of puff though.
Compliments of the season to all contributors, moderators, detractors and readers.
Compliments of the season to all contributors, moderators, detractors and readers.