Focal Sopra 2/3 vs Harbeth SHL5 Plus

[ryder]

Has anybody compared the Sopra 2 or 3 to the Harbeth SHL5 Plus? Which is a more involving speaker, not only being detailed, fast and dynamic but having the capability to portray voices and instruments in their truest timbre and tonality. The Harbeth is one of the most natural sounding speakers I have heard by far. Voices and sound of instruments sound just like the real thing through them. Once I switched to other speakers music didn't sound as real. I was wondering if the Focal Sopras could match the Harbeth in the areas of tonality and timbre.

I presume the Focals do not sound as warm or lush as the Harbeth with their leaner presentation.

 

[topk]

short answer: no they don't.

 

[Singslinger]

I have not listened to both speakers side-by-side but in different settings.

My impression is that their presentations differ - the Sopra (driven by Naim 252/Supercap/250DR) is a real rocker with bags of bass whilst the Harbeth (driven by a Rega integrated) is as you describe it, with a very good midrange but perhaps not as fast as the Sopra.

Then again if I recall correctly, the Sopra is quite a bit more expensive...?

 

[ryder]

I have not listened to both speakers side-by-side but in different settings.

My impression is that their presentations differ - the Sopra (driven by Naim 252/Supercap/250DR) is a real rocker with bags of bass whilst the Harbeth (driven by a Rega integrated) is as you describe it, with a very good midrange but perhaps not as fast as the Sopra.

Then again if I recall correctly, the Sopra is quite a bit more expensive...?

If I am not mistaken, you have owned some Harbeth speakers isn't it? How is the tonality and timbre of the Focal Sopras? I am aware that most speakers at this level do the hifi traits very well - good detail with impressive and rock n' roll bass. But what about timbre and tonal quality of instruments and voices? Yes, the Sopras are costlier than the Harbeth, but then again there are many mega-buck speakers that do not quite portray timbre as well as the "modestly-priced" Harbeth.

Good to note that the Sopras can rock well with the Naim 252/250 DR.

I don't quite like the Rega / Harbeth combination although some may find it great. The Harbeth/Rega combination sounded a tad slow and less involving to me when compared to Naim+Harbeth. As usual, it's all subjective.

 

[ryder]

short answer: no they don't.

Right, thanks.

 

[Singslinger]

Hi Ryder, yes I used to own the P3ESR and the M30.1. Both were a little too polite and laid back for me, so they were sold and replaced by models from ProAc and Spendor. I prefer speakers to be a bit more forward and exciting, even if they sacrifice a little in terms of accuracy.

However, I haven't owned the new SHL5 Plus, which I gather is a rather special speaker. In my limited experience listening to it with Rega, I think it is a bit more accurate than the Focals, the latter having a leaner presentation (as you have already noted). And yes, I agree that the Rega-Harbeth combo is perhaps not ideal;I daresay that Harbeth might work better with Naim.

By the way, are looks important to you? The Focal with its forward leaning posture may not appeal to everyone; then again, the Harbeth with its traditional BBC, boxy design may be classified by some as old fashioned. I would find it hard to decide between the two - I love the rosewood finish on Harbeths but the orange Sopras are really attractive as well!

 

[ryder]

Hi Ryder, yes I used to own the P3ESR and the M30.1. Both were a little too polite and laid back for me, so they were sold and replaced by models from ProAc and Spendor. I prefer speakers to be a bit more forward and exciting, even if they sacrifice a little in terms of accuracy.

However, I haven't owned the new SHL5 Plus, which I gather is a rather special speaker. In my limited experience listening to it with Rega, I think it is a bit more accurate than the Focals, the latter having a leaner presentation (as you have already noted). And yes, I agree that the Rega-Harbeth combo is perhaps not ideal;I daresay that Harbeth might work better with Naim.

By the way, are looks important to you? The Focal with its forward leaning posture may not appeal to everyone; then again, the Harbeth with its traditional BBC, boxy design may be classified by some as old fashioned. I would find it hard to decide between the two - I love the rosewood finish on Harbeths but the orange Sopras are really attractive as well!

Thanks for the response. It was surely appreciated.

The reason I asked about the Sopras is some owners reported great results with Naim amps. Since I have upgraded my Naim amps, I thought the amps might deserve some *better* speakers that I have right now in the Harbeth.

I can understand your assessment on the P3ESR and M30.1, the politeness and laidback character. Perhaps I do not have much experience with many speakers, but every time I swapped by SHL5s out for the Dali Mentor Menuets (another speaker that i have), somehow, music sounded "fake" to me. No doubt the Dalis sound more exciting than the Harbeth with more energy in the highs, but the tonality is off and doesn't sound as real as the Harbeth. The sound of voices and instruments. It's like a processed sound with EQ with the Dalis, for the lack of a better term. The Dalis are quite musical and sound rather good, but when compared to the Harbeth somehow the shortcomings become clear. I am afraid I will get some of that with other costlier and *better* speakers.

As much as I like the Harbeth SHL5s, I have plans to upgrade to the SHL5 Plus. Judging from the description - faster sound, more coherent sounding, better (less boomy) bass of the SHL5 Plus, all these comments seem to be in line with what I am looking for. Having said that, the M30.1 is also intriguing as some preferred this over the SHL5 Plus. The last time I listened to the (older) M30, I didn't quite like it as the C7ES3 and SHL5 sounded better to my ears and listening preferences. If I happen to drop by the Harbeth dealer, I will revisit the M30.1 although the SHL5 Plus is the "main course".

 

[ryder]

Yes, aesthetics are important to me. The Harbeths are old-fashioned but I have accepted the looks as sound quality is what that matters in the end. As for the Sopras, build quality and form look great, but I have not seen the real thing yet.

 

[daniele_g]

ryder,
please forgive me for going a little OT, but how would you describe sound of Compact 7ES3 compared to HP3-ESx and M30 (which I know) ?
maybe I should start a new thread about that...

 

[Whaleblue]

I demoed Sopra No.2s and was initially impressed. On a home dem against B&W 805 D3s I realised that a lot of what I thought of as detail retrieval in the 2s was, in fact, mostly just a hike in the treble. Adjusting this via a crude tone control made them sound a lot more like the 805s.

I have not heard Harbeths of any kind, but from what I understand they're at the other end of the spectrum to the Focals. As a result this seems an odd (chalk and cheese) comparison, so I wonder why it's of specific interest? Surely there are other speakers that might be better considered if you like the Harbeth sound, but wish to consider alternatives?

 

[mattgbell]

Surely there are other speakers that might be better considered if you like the Harbeth sound, but wish to consider alternatives?

Sonus faber is an example that springs to mind, either the new Olympica I standmounts or (my preference) the now discontinued Cremona Auditor M standmounts. I owned the latter for a couple of years, having demoed them twice against the Harbeth SHL5s. I found them both tonally truer and punchier than the Harbeths (though I do like the Harbeths a lot).

 

[Whaleblue]

Sonus faber is an example that springs to mind, either the new Olympica I standmounts or (my preference) the now discontinued Cremona Auditor M standmounts. I owned the latter for a couple of years, having demoed them twice against the Harbeth SHL5s. I found them both tonally truer and punchier than the Harbeths (though I do like the Harbeths a lot).

Yes, SF came to my mind too. From my thread of a couple of months ago I said:

Sonus Faber Olympica 1 - very very different. Quite an easy listen - laid back. If I had to live with them I could, but lacking some midrange sophistication

Actually @Ryder, I just noticed an unanswered question at the end of that old thread from you regarding the B&W 805D3s. To answer now, I would say of all the speakers I demoed at that time they were my favourite. As you may remember I ended up with IPL (kit-build) speakers for £500, which put the search for my ultimate speaker for my room on hold. I may have a listen to the 803D3 later in the year...

Another thought - PMC have just launched a Twenty5 range that might be worth a listen - though I thought the Twentys were overpriced for what they are.

An of course, all this is meaningless until *you* get them home for a few days to listen in *your* room.

 

[daniele_g]

IMHO all the mentioned speakers are quite (or very) different from Harbeths, for different reasons.
should I think of an ideal "substitute" of Harbeths, I'd say Magneplanar: in price-comparable models (MG12 which I owned, MG1.5 and 1.6 which I know, but sure the newer 0.7 and 1.7 as well, though I never listened to them) you have more or less same frequency extension, and mid-highs are oh, so smooth and natural...

just to add some confusion !

 

[ryder]

I demoed Sopra No.2s and was initially impressed. On a home dem against B&W 805 D3s I realised that a lot of what I thought of as detail retrieval in the 2s was, in fact, mostly just a hike in the treble. Adjusting this via a crude tone control made them sound a lot more like the 805s.

I have not heard Harbeths of any kind, but from what I understand they're at the other end of the spectrum to the Focals. As a result this seems an odd (chalk and cheese) comparison, so I wonder why it's of specific interest? Surely there are other speakers that might be better considered if you like the Harbeth sound, but wish to consider alternatives?
Actually @Ryder, I just noticed an unanswered question at the end of that old thread from you regarding the B&W 805D3s. To answer now, I would say of all the speakers I demoed at that time they were my favourite. As you may remember I ended up with IPL (kit-build) speakers for £500, which put the search for my ultimate speaker for my room on hold. I may have a listen to the 803D3 later in the year...

Another thought - PMC have just launched a Twenty5 range that might be worth a listen - though I thought the Twentys were overpriced for what they are.

An of course, all this is meaningless until *you* get them home for a few days to listen in *your* room.

Uhmm, so Sopra 2s sounded almost the same as the B&W 805 D3 via tone controls. That is interesting. Yes, I remember the DIY speaker kit that bettered the Focals and B&Ws in your system. That is quite a revelation indeed and for this reason, I can understand why your search for the ultimate speaker is currently put on hold.

Now, on your comment on the chalk and cheese comparison. Firstly, I do not know how the Focal Sopras would sound like, hence the comparison. Secondly, at the place where I live, home demo is almost impossible except for the Harbeth and maybe PMC. The acquisition of some new amplifiers has opened up the possibilities for better speakers (although there may not be one in existence). I have a feeling I will gravitate toward the SHL5 Plus but will make an attempt to investigate the Focal Sopras and ATC SCM19 before any decision is made. The ATC SCM19 looks a tad ugly though (uglier than the Harbeth in my book). Will need to get past the looks department if I were to consider the ATC.

Having owned the PMC LB1 Signature, I would be hesitant to consider another PMC. Yes, I agree the current PMC range seems to be overpriced.

 

[ryder]

ryder,
please forgive me for going a little OT, but how would you describe sound of Compact 7ES3 compared to HP3-ESx and M30 (which I know) ?
maybe I should start a new thread about that...

For the past few days, I have been reading a lot about people's experiences on the comparison between the M30 / 30.1 and SHL5 / Plus. The remarks are consistent with my experience.

I don't know about the HP3-ESx (not too sure what model this is). Between the Compact 7ES3 and M30, I always consider the C7ES3 and SHL5 (non-Plus) to sound quite similar with the C7ES3 being slightly more dynamic/quicker and open. The M30 on the other hand has a distinctive sound as if it's a wild child or special one in the Harbeth line of speakers. It is difficult to describe in words but I'll try. The M30 is more forward sounding than the C7ES3 and SHL5. The transient attack is greater with the M30 as crescendos leap out more prominently from a quiet background. The sound of instruments such as plucking of strings of the guitar is even more lifelike than the SHL5 and C7ES3. Ditto the human voice. More energy, sounds more like the real thing. Despite these traits, the M30 does not sound as open as the other two speakers being a bit veiled in the midrange. The overall spectrum seems to be slightly restrained and shut-in. The SHL5 and C7ES3 sound airier and more open.

 

[Whaleblue]

Uhmm, so Sopra 2s sounded almost the same as the B&W 805 D3 via tone controls. That is interesting. Yes, I remember the DIY speaker kit that bettered the Focals and B&Ws in your system. That is quite a revelation indeed and for this reason, I can understand why your search for the ultimate speaker is currently put on hold.

One should be cautious here - the IPLs at £500 were a no brainer against the other two at multiples (6-10 times) of the cost.

I suspect I'll end up upgrading at some time, and might stick with floorstanders (having concluded it's just big floorstanders I need to avoid in my room!). The 803 and 804 D3s appeal for a demo at some time...

Regards ATC, I think I also need to hear the new 40s (in my case as passives).

 

[ryder]

IPLs can surely astound. What a shocker at £500 it sounded better than speakers costing 10 times more. I wouldn't be surprised as that can happen at times, budget kit sounding better than costlier premium gear.

I have listened to the ATC SCM40s many years ago, about 7 or 8 years. Passive speakers driven by Ayre electronics. Perhaps this older model is inferior to the current SCM40. I wasn't really impressed with these speakers. It's all detail with no emotion. Perhaps it is a combination of the room and electronics (I heard these speakers at a hifi show). I left the room in less than 5 minutes.

 

[daniele_g]

I don't know about the HP3-ESx (not too sure what model this is). Between the Compact 7ES3 and M30, I always consider the C7ES3 and SHL5 (non-Plus) to sound quite similar with the C7ES3 being slightly more dynamic/quicker and open. The M30 on the other hand has a distinctive sound as if it's a wild child or special one in the Harbeth line of speakers. It is difficult to describe in words but I'll try. The M30 is more forward sounding than the C7ES3 and SHL5. The transient attack is greater with the M30 as crescendos leap out more prominently from a quiet background. The sound of instruments such as plucking of strings of the guitar is even more lifelike than the SHL5 and C7ES3. Ditto the human voice. More energy, sounds more like the real thing. Despite these traits, the M30 does not sound as open as the other two speakers being a bit veiled in the midrange. The overall spectrum seems to be slightly restrained and shut-in. The SHL5 and C7ES3 sound airier and more open.

thanks, ryder, very interesting.
I often listened to M30 (not ".1") and HP3-ES2 (my brother owns them), and I love these speakers -as you may know from a thread I recently opened.
your words about M30 being forward and lifelike, in particular with human voices, fully confirm my experience; I'm a bit surprised by that "being a bit veiled in the midrange" compared to C7ES3 and SHL5, but I never had the chance of listening to the latter two.
moreover, if I had to tell a weakness of M30s, I'd say about a bass not so easy to control properly: I've listened to them with several different amps and I made an opinion that they require more powerful amps than one would think based on their dimensions. I would not use a 30wpc tube amp to drive them, unless mid and highs are enough to me (but then I would go for HP3-ESx). I wonder if you agree with that and if C7ESx and SHL5 have same "requirements".

 

[Whaleblue]

IPLs can surely astound. What a shocker at £500 it sounded better than speakers costing 10 times more.

I'm not being clear...

I'd say the IPLs gave the others a run for their money, and I preferred the overall balance of them in my room. However, I think the Focals and B&Ws did some things better - probably a little more revealing in the mids - but given the price difference the IPLs were an easy keep for the medium term. One must also accept that £500 gets a competent "amateur" build - but not something that can compare to the build quality of the other two.

 

[topk]

Right, thanks.

The reason of my reply is that Focal and Harbeth are really very different speakers. It's not like we would compare Harbeth and Spendor. I view Focals as closer to a B&W type of speaker i.e. more hifi, very different from Harbeth which is music focused. They're not really comparable in my view... They come from a different background and philosophy. The Focals certainly have more detail, extension, bass, slam..etc. for sure. they have more of pretty much everything in hifi terms. There's a good review on Steve Huff photo website. But in my opinion they're less musical depending to some extent on the genre.