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First visit to a Gramophone [Hifi] shop for more than fifteen years ...

George J

George J

Herefordshire member
The last thing I bought in a Hifi shop was actually in 2001. That was my pair of pre-issue Naim SBLs. A fascinating pair of speakers that were made in the development process of the first mark of SBL and used to develop the mark two version by fitting the later mid-bass range speaker into an original SBL pair. Of course they were very fine examples and eventually sold in the public arena [in Bristol] after they no longer represented a development asset for Naim. Serial number 0013. Both of them. They cost me £750 from AudioX in Worcester, after an extended demo in the shop. Well that is history and the tale of of some truly historic speakers. These days I have a single ESL [57] made in the first year [during the mono era] and I'll never get a nicer speaker, because though such might exist, I could never afford such things!

Last year I was gifted 800 LPs that otherwise would have been landfill as the charity shops no longer want used LPs. So much for the vaunted LP revival! Plus a Sony DD TT from the late 1970s. Last Autumn I was also given by a lifelong friend his late uncle's record collection and a [as it turns out splendid] Project Debut III TT, originally fitted as with an Ortofon OM 5 [conical] needle. It now carries an OM 5ES - E indicates elliptical and S indicates superior to the original 5 conical diamond tip. Nowadays the cartridge is supported with the OM 5E as they no longer need to suggest the superior part!].

I took the TT to the shop [in King Street by the Cathedral in Hereford] and they ordered the new tip ... Plus they will check the tracking weight with a scale and oil the bearing ...

£50 for a nice TT serviced and going. Actually, I don't think there is anything wrong with the existing tip. It tracks just so well. But when you buy a second hand car you do change the rubber timing belt, just to be safe ...

They asked me what my replay was, and to make some youngsters happy, I am going to take the old Trough-Line tuner in to show them what a first quality radio looked like in 1957. I guess that most their parents were not born when my old radio was made!

Best wishes from George
 
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A gramophone is a record player, but is only one word. I do believe in the KISS principle. Keep it simple ... keep it clear.

After all The Gramophone Company issued 78s, and LPs and later CDs whether mono or stereo and they self-advertised as "the greatest recording organisation in the world." That is not necessarily the absolute truth, but the fact is that "Gramophone" is a valid word that describes the system of recorded music via a physical disk rather elegantly.

Best wishes from George
 
George. You know very well that a 'needle' is a stylus, and a gramophone was a record deck with built in amp and speakers (unless you are over 100?). If this is your new sense of humour, I suggest you go watch some spike milligan films ;)
]
 
Dear Mike,

I would like to give your post a double like or a Penguin Gramophone Guide Rosette!
So long as I retain vinyl [and shellac] replay I pray forgiveness for referring to it as gramophone replay!

Best wishes from George

One of the great early gramophone recordings:


Even the incredible Otto Klemperer regarded well [his choice before his own gramophone efforts] this recording from a time when he was a revolutionary firebrand kicking up the stuffy order in Berlin in the 1920s.

The gramophone allows us to dispel the myths and confirm the legends for what they were ...
 
I recall an elderly relative once telling me that the thorns from rosebuds were used as styli for shellac disks. Just realised - maybe that's where the 'Thorn' in EMI-Thorn' comes from ?

P.s. I'd have guessed that the Sony direct drive would have been better than a Project as I think you compared it favourably to a Rega P3.
 
Phonograph is a good word for them too. A more accurate description than record, which you can find at the public records office or in a book by Norris and Ross McWhirter.
 
piccadilly said:
I recall an elderly relative once telling me that the thorns from rosebuds were used as styli for shellac disks. Just realised - maybe that's where the 'Thorn' in EMI-Thorn' comes from ?

P.s. I'd have guessed that the Sony direct drive would have been better than a Project as I think you compared it favourably to a Rega P3.
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The Rega was got so I could transfer my remaining 50 odd LPs that had not made it to CD.

It was a lovely player with the original arm and a Super Elys cartridge so a an original set-up with the better original fitment optional stylus ...

I had no reasonable criticism of it. I did the transfers to CD via a Philips CD recorder, and several of those still exist in my iTunes ...

The Sony had a better pitch stability [a marginal difference as LPs themselves are not always perfect for pitch stability as cut] but the Project seems to have a stability that is not worse than the DD Sony ... Quite amazing for a belt drive ... And it has a natural tonal quality that can only be called "good." Perfect ... no ...but kindly, exciting on times, engaging!

LPs have their issues, but the Project [and Rega phono pre-amp] make a good stab at being more accurate than might be reasonably expected at the price, or indeed at any price.

Yes this little gramophone is quite surprisingly good. The best I ever had and not embarrassed by any LP replay I have heard before ...

Best wishes from George
 
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hifinutt said:
and not far from worcester is the needle museum which has many of the old needles used in grampophones . well worth a visit if you are near Redditch

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Bet there's plenty of Denon DL103's on display there!

Edison allegedly invented the wax cylinder after finding a dusty DL103 in the back of a draw and it gave him an idea! S'trew!:)
 
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Mike Reed said:
Gosh, George, but Beethoven's No. 5 has come a long way! I've got 2 or 3 (Bohm, Karajan; maybe even Klemperer) and the tempo and flow is far better; much more 'polished' performances.
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I can easily agree that there are more polished performances on records than Landon Ronald's of Beethoven's Fifth, but I am just as sure that Beethoven's Fifth is not music that requires to be all that polished. Granitic, in its implications, more so.

As for flow, I suspect you are thinking [but I could be incorrectly imagining your thoughts and be quite wrong] that a steady tempo equates to flow, but that is a dilemma musically speaking. Karajan was notoriously smooth in his performances and yet did not always bring out the deeper implications of the music. Boehm is a conductor for whom I have a great deal of respect, but I think tended to succeed better in less dramatic [symphonic] music. Hence his well regarded performances of say Beethoven's Pastoral rather than the tense, terse, fiery music of the Fifth.

Where Landon Ronald shows a true brilliance in his recording of Beethoven Five [as I posted above] is that he takes a view of the music that is pleasingly flexible in tempo but completely structural in his application of this flexibility. The first movement is a masterclass in how to bring out the opening bars containing the Knocks of Fate at the Door theme, and its subsequent development with contrasted thematic ideas in a way that is completely drawn from the music itself, and withal at a pace that brings the movement in in a quick overall timing. Of course the orchestra was not today's Vienna or Berlin Philharmonic grade group, but in the mid-1920s, only the USA had orchestras that played with more polish consistently. The gramophone brought the general standards of playing into sharp relief as it was possible to scrutinise errors, poor tuning and slack ensemble very closely and repeatedly. The consequence was that by the 1930s standards in all metropolitan orchestras improved. The BBC Symphony Orchestra [which was largely drawn from the old Queens Hall Orchestra and the Royal Albert Hall Orchestra] would be trained at considerable expense in rehearsal time into a more accurate and modern sounding orchestra than Landon Ronald's RAHO. But not I would think a necessarily more musical sounding ensemble.

In the old Ronald recording after a very fine rendering of the second movement, we are treated to the Scherzo and Finale of a cogency that defied all but the most exalted Beethoven conductors. The performance literally moves from strength to strength into a remarkably clear and organic whole. When those records were made in 1926 Ronald became the first conductor in the world to have recorded the Fifth Symphony twice. HMV could have chosen from many famous conductors based in the USA or Europe, but stayed close to home for the very reason that at the time Ronald was a famously fine Beethoven conductor. Even RCA Victor issued this set in the USA and kept it in the full-price series for a very long time. That would not have happened if the music making was not recognised as being exemplary in its day.

Of course the recording is typical of very early electrical quality, and would be outclassed
technically quite early on, but given the choice of a fairly old fashioned [and somewhat limited] recording of a great musical conception of the symphony, or a better recorded, and more polished style that would follow from all but a few such as the granitic Klemperer, I'll pin my colours to the mast and say that I count this old performance as being a co-favourite with Klemperer's estimable 1955 recording for EMI. This itself has a quite fascinating way with the music given how styles [including Klemperer's style later on in his extreme old age] have changed to ... a more rigid, less daring, and smoother way with it. Easier to guarantee ensemble is more accurate if the beat is more metronomic ...

Anyway, just for fun, here is some Debussy that Ronald and RAHO recorded at the same session as the Beethoven Five!


Ronald was an all-round great musician, sadly hardly known today, because he lived a little too early for the recording techniques of the day to make recordings that stayed in the catalogues for long. Techniques and fidelity rapidly improved in the first five or ten years of electrical recordings. The majority of his records were made in the acoustic process, and may present the modern listener with insurmountable difficulties with the actual sonics, even compared to the early electricals!

He also made the first electrical recording of Tchaikowsky's Fourth, done only a few days after electrical recording was introduced at the HMV studios in 1925. It is a glorious reading in somewhat cramped sounds, but certainly worth searching out.

Best wishes from George
 
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The two most salient moments in gramophone shops to me were the time in Gilson Audio, Billingham precinct branch, circa 1980, A guy walks in wearing a full face crash helmet and asks to hear some budget speakers. He does not remove the crash helmet. He leaves with some AR18's after comparing 2 - 3 on the comparator....

The other was in Gilson Audio's main branch in Middlesbrough. Two chavs run into the shop and grab a CD player and run out! It happened so fast I did nothing but point and go "what the ****!?" before they were out... Myself and the only other customer, an elderly gent who looked rather "ex RAF doncha know old boy" shouted for the staff both of whom had gone into the demo room and told them what had happened. They ran out but they were well away. Then the old boy says "he's one of them! I've no doubt" he's the look out!" and starts prodding me with his walking stick aggressively! One of the staff immediately says "no he's a good customer! cease that right now or you will have to leave!", and apologises to me...
 
George J said:
Of course the orchestra was not today's Vienna or Berlin Philharmonic grade group, but in the mid-1920s, only the USA had orchestras that played with more polish consistently.
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That's an analysis fit for the 'Music' section, George.:). I think you probably have it in your text above re. orchestras. However, I'm no judge, esp. of classical rendition history. It's amazing that sth like this from the (early/mid?) twenties can sound so good; better that if you played the 78 on your gramophone of whatever ilk (not many 78 speeds on record decks nowadays !.
 
I've just dug out my Landon Ronald Beethoven 5, will give it a spin later. Cat no is D665, I don't have the posh album pictured above. From the catalogue number I'm guessing this is the earlier pre-electric version?
 
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