advertisement


Finally got a decent TT... My opinion on digital vs vinyl

sonddek said:
There might be a lesson to be learned here. IMO a record brush is probably a good way to ensure clickety-pop vinyl hell. I used to use a carbon fibre brush back in the 80's but gave up pretty quickly when I began to suspect it was making things worse. My advice for a solution to this problem is to clean your records once with PVA, zerostat them whenever necessary, and clean your stylus with safety match abrasive or the green stuff. I have a great many 25 year-old records which sound as good as new.
Click to expand...

I initially used a sweeping arm brush opposite the arm on my first deck Michell Focus 1, then the carbon fibre variety, then, Sondek by now, the ultimate a silicon type material plastered over the record until it looked like it was wrecked. Peel off and all the dust comes with it, supposedly.:)
 
I would be interested to know if a Phono Pre-Amp was used at all in the demo. Surely the RP6 with Exact deserves a Phono Pre-Amp to really get anywhere near it's potential.
 
Vinyl is all about synergy - get it right and it is SUPERB. Only problem is that a lot of vinyl reissues and modern releases use CD digital masters modded for vinyl releases - so you dont hear the best that vinyl can give. Try some early Decca SXL classical and blue note jazz and it sounds great.

Although playing with a squeeze box and my cds ripped at hi rez sounded good too!
 
Robert said:
At the nearest opportunity, replace the Exact with a Denon DL110 (£130), Ortofon M2 Black (£400) or perhaps Audio Technica OC9 (£400).
The latter is a low output MC and requires a MC input or step up transformer.

All will improve on the rather diffuse and splashy sounding Exact.

If you are anywhere near London and want to hear what a decent MC cartridge (or MM for that matter) can do, drop me a PM and I'll pop one on your RP6 and let you decide.
Click to expand...

ThELiZ, that sounds like a decent offer.
The main conclusion from your experience is that the quality of the recording, mastering and pressing is more important than small differences between competent front ends. This is very much in line with my conclusions from comparing needle drops (digital recordings of LPs) on this site: you strain to hear small differences between turntable A and B (not to mention TT shelves or racks) but are blown away by the huge differences between different recordings and pressings. This doesn't mean that you can't hear gains from better cartridges. They will just be more subtle than what you heard between your 2 recordings of DSOTM.
 
Robert said:
I've been sitting on my hands a bit as the last thing you need is someone being critical of a new toy but I'll say this as nicely and diplomatically as possible.

Rega make some great turntables and arms.
They produce a range of MM cartridges and the Exact is the best of the bunch.

However, the choice of cartridge will be seriously hampering this potentially excellent system. At the nearest opportunity, replace the Exact with a Denon DL110 (£130), Ortofon M2 Black (£400) or perhaps Audio Technica OC9 (£400).
The latter is a low output MC and requires a MC input or step up transformer.

All will improve on the rather diffuse and splashy sounding Exact.

If you are anywhere near London and want to hear what a decent MC cartridge (or MM for that matter) can do, drop me a PM and I'll pop one on your RP6 and let you decide.
Click to expand...

Hi Robert,

Many thanks for your offer and advice. Unfortunately, you're too far away for me. I appreciate it, though.
 
PsB said:
ThELiZ, that sounds like a decent offer.
The main conclusion from your experience is that the quality of the recording, mastering and pressing is more important than small differences between competent front ends. This is very much in line with my conclusions from comparing needle drops (digital recordings of LPs) on this site: you strain to hear small differences between turntable A and B (not to mention TT shelves or racks) but are blown away by the huge differences between different recordings and pressings. This doesn't mean that you can't hear gains from better cartridges. They will just be more subtle than what you heard between your 2 recordings of DSOTM.
Click to expand...

Without hearing a different cartridge this is all conjecture, but I believe that the small differences in sound will not be worth the £998 I have paid. I think I will just enjoy what I have got and will rest easy knowing I tried to give vinyl a go.

Hopefully they will take the turntable back! I have their demo unit as they didn't have a new one in stock, so all should be fine. I hope! This has actually been my first time buying new.
 
ThELiZ said:
Without hearing a different cartridge this is all conjecture, but I believe that the small differences in sound will not be worth the £998 I have paid. I think I will just enjoy what I have got and will rest easy knowing I tried to give vinyl a go.

Hopefully they will take the turntable back! I have their demo unit as they didn't have a new one in stock, so all should be fine. I hope! This has actually been my first time buying new.
Click to expand...

Since you haven't taken delivery yet, why don't you express your reservations and ask to hear it with a different cartridge?

I have heard the Exact but ended up choosing a 2M Bronze which my dealer fitted. The 2M black uses the same body so a dealer should be able to swap between Bronze and Black fairly easily if you weren't convinced?

(All of my comment is moot of course if you have set your mind on cancelling the order).
 
I did an extensive comparison between live, vinyl and 24 bit digital a few years ago.

I went to an open Ensemble teaching session at the Royal Academy of Music in London. A small ensemble of 20 year old students played a piece of music I'd never heard before for about a minute. They then got some coaching from leading violinist/director Rachel Podger. They then played the same minute of music again, doing a better job. This happened four or five times, with each performance being better. So I got to hear something one doesn't normally get to hear in concerts, live musicians play the same piece of music again and again. Thus enabling me to get to know the piece of music better. Then another group of students would get up and we would go through the whole process again. This happened with four ensembles in something like an hour. The last piece was one I didn't know by Bach, it was very emotionally uplifting, especially by the time we got to the fifth and final performance. Not surprisingly I left the Academy on a great emotional high.

Back home I listened to some similar music on both vinyl and 24 bit digital.

Conclusion?

24 bit sounded more like the real instruments do live: that sounds more like a real violin, cello, piano.

Vinyl moves me emotional almost as much as live performances can.

Interestingly, now I live in Australia, where there are lots of regular hifi get-togethers. At the two GTGs I've run, people have listened to a few CDs and studio masters on my KDS, but most of the time attendees play things on my LP12.
 
ThELiZ said:
Without hearing a different cartridge this is all conjecture, but I believe that the small differences in sound will not be worth the £998 I have paid. I think I will just enjoy what I have got and will rest easy knowing I tried to give vinyl a go.

Hopefully they will take the turntable back! I have their demo unit as they didn't have a new one in stock, so all should be fine. I hope! This has actually been my first time buying new.
Click to expand...

Poor old business that has to put up with this sort of trading.If the agreement was that the deck can be purchased on the strict understanding that it can be returned, then fine. But if it was sold in the normal way, and the purchaser simply decides he has changed his mind, then that seems another matter.Try buying (say) a car, using it and then telling the garage you have simply changed your mind.
There has to be some fairness between buyer and seller, which really means agreeing the conditions before purchase .Hopefully that happened here.
 
I'm sure there are plenty of vinyl enthusiasts who can give you a demo of what a good t/t package can sound like compared to digital to help you decide. I'm in N London and can demo both if you like. Don't know where you hang out....
 
paskinn said:
Poor old business that has to put up with this sort of trading.If the agreement was that the deck can be purchased on the strict understanding that it can be returned, then fine. But if it was sold in the normal way, and the purchaser simply decides he has changed his mind, then that seems another matter.Try buying (say) a car, using it and then telling the garage you have simply changed your mind.
There has to be some fairness between buyer and seller, which really means agreeing the conditions before purchase .Hopefully that happened here.
Click to expand...

Yes, but I haven't actually taken receipt of the new turntable. I am using their demo unit. No harm no foul, surely? They will just cancel the order with Rega. I really don't see Audio-T as a 'Poor old business'.

Considering I am keeping over £1300 of equipment purchased from them, thy should be fine.
 
ThELiZ said:
Yes, I must say that I thought I would like the odd pop and click here or there. But hen I hear it, it kind of takes me away from the music. I almost try to listen for another one!

Having a nice black background is great, for sure.
Click to expand...

I was thinking about this issue at the Proms tonight. The background was not inky black at all. I noticed a wide range of intrusions which would have ruined the performance for you, including:
- the breathing of my neighbours
- the shuffling, scratching, rustling and nodding of anyone within about ten yards
- sneezing and coughing from anywhere in the hall
- several instances of dropped objects which sounded like keys, wine glasses, programmes et cetera
- a woman in heavy heels climbing down the steep steps behind the stage
- a mobile telephone ringing with a 'beat the intro' ringtone
- the quarter-second echo of the snare drum coming from the wrong end of the hall
- a cacoughony (geddit?!?!!) of throat clearing between each movement

It's lucky I'm a vinyl applogist: I was able thoroughly to enjoy the performance regardless of these endless intrusions which were far harder to ignore than the occasional pop or click on a record.

The material was Vaughn Williams symphonies 4, 5, and 6 by the way.
 
sonddek said:
I was thinking about this issue at the Proms tonight. The background was not inky black at all. I noticed a wide range of intrusions which would have ruined the performance for you, including:
- the breathing of my neighbours
- the shuffling, scratching, rustling and nodding of anyone within about ten yards
- sneezing and coughing from anywhere in the hall
- several instances of dropped objects which sounded like keys, wine glasses, programmes et cetera
- a woman in heavy heels climbing down the steep steps behind the stage
- a mobile telephone ringing with a 'beat the intro' ringtone
- the quarter-second echo of the snare drum coming from the wrong end of the hall
- a cacoughony (geddit?!?!!) of throat clearing between each movement

It's lucky I'm a vinyl applogist: I was able thoroughly to enjoy the performance regardless of these endless intrusions which were far harder to ignore than the occasional pop or click on a record.

The material was Vaughn Williams symphonies 4, 5, and 6 by the way.
Click to expand...

Hi, best advert I've heard so far for buying your music on CD:)
 
I'm not stressed at all by clicks and pops. It goes with the medium and doesn't disturb the music. Maybe the digital MTV generation has other preferences...
 
john & Jake said:
hi
We digitals must be more sensitive creatures,

Da,DA,DA,Da, click, DA,DA,DA,DA pop, no thanks:)
Click to expand...

More likely 99% of you have just never heard a top class cartridge. That's not a criticism by the way. I can honestly say that the last two cartridges I have owned I never noticed pops or clicks unless they were cyclic, as in caused by a deep scratch etc. Reason being that a good cartridge has a good enough transient response to essentially make the click such a short duration that it doesn't intrude in to the consciousness to any higher degree than any other transient background noise might, (and there is always background noise, I highly doubt anybody listens to music in a soundproofed room), so never spoiled my enjoyment of the music.

I've read hundreds of posts like the OPs and I can count on the fingers of one hand how many of them compared the digital set up with a true top class TT. I've got no illusions as to the technical superiority of CD but when it comes to subjective performance that really isn't the issue, (most people love/use speakers that are horrendously inaccurate anyway, so accuracy is moot). The point being that the (subjective) comparisons are essentially never "fair" in the sense that hardly any of those that dip their toes actually ever listen to a top quality TT. That said I can fully appreciate the cost issue, getting the best from vinyl does cost a lot more than most people can afford frankly. Especially for those of an age of the digital era.

For the record I no longer listen to vinyl because a) I don't really have the room to set up my TT and records in my living room b) I've become lazy.
Also, in all honesty I don't listen to music that much these days. I'm far more interested in films now.
 
GTM said:
More likely 99% of you have just never heard a top class cartridge. That's not a criticism by the way. I can honestly say that the last two cartridges I have owned I never noticed pops or clicks unless they were cyclic, as in caused by a deep scratch etc. Reason being that a good cartridge has a good enough transient response to essentially make the click such a short duration that it doesn't intrude in to the consciousness to any higher degree than any other transient background noise might, (and there is always background noise, I highly doubt anybody listens to music in a soundproofed room), so never spoiled my enjoyment of the music.

I've read hundreds of posts like the OPs and I can count on the fingers of one hand how many of them compared the digital set up with a true top class TT. I've got no illusions as to the technical superiority of CD but when it comes to subjective performance that really isn't the issue, (most people love/use speakers that are horrendously inaccurate anyway, so accuracy is moot). The point being that the (subjective) comparisons are essentially never "fair" in the sense that hardly any of those that dip their toes actually ever listen to a top quality TT. That said I can fully appreciate the cost issue, getting the best from vinyl does cost a lot more than most people can afford frankly. Especially for those of an age of the digital era.
Click to expand...

My best music system from the past was sondek,syrinx pu2 ASAK exposure 7 and 4 dual and Isobariks. At that time, late 70's early 80', I don't believe a better vinyl system existed. The Asak was a great cartridge
Music couldn't have been better but as soon as I heard CD I was won over and was the first to have a Sony CDP101 in my town and I've never wanted vinyl since.:)
 
john & Jake said:
My best music system from the past was sondek,syrinx pu2 ASAK exposure 7 and 4 dual and Isobariks. At that time, late 70's early 80', I don't believe a better vinyl system existed. The Asak was a great cartridge
Music couldn't have been better but as soon as I heard CD I was won over and was the first to have a Sony CDP101 in my town and I've never wanted vinyl since.:)
Click to expand...

Fair enough, I'm not saying there aren't plenty of people that have heard top class TTs but still prefer CD, I'm sure there are. I'm really talking about the younger generations that have never listened to vinyl and try it out "to see what all the fuss is about". Hardly any of these posters compare a truly top quality TT, (I've never been a Rega fan personally), with their digital set up.

But seriously? you prefered 1st generation digital to your TT? gosh !! :eek: I found pretty much every first gen CD player un-listenable. Then again ... I've never rated the Sondek personally. Ironically I always preferred the Xerxes which has always been considered to give a more CD type presentation to the Sondek :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top