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Excessive dust collecting on new vinyl

I use a carbon fibre brush, store my records in Mofi sleeves and wash my records on a RCM. No problems with dust or static at all.

Ditto. :)

But then, P-E, we just can't see the dust - it's been pushed into the grooves by the RCM, according to Sonddek , anyway! :D

Regards,

Andy
 
Don't dismiss sonddeck so flipantly! I'll report more later on his useful comments.


Please do, eguth. I can't imagine that particular comment was made by someone who has personal experience with actually using an RCM. :)

Regards,

Andy
 
I tried sonddek’s useful suggestion to sharpen the pistol needle. I used a small needle file without a handle. After my first attempt there was still no spark. So I tried again.

As soon as the file touched the needle I got quite a strong shock. The needle had held a charge.

After the second sharpening again no visible spark, but I got another electric shock.

However, in a blacked out room although no spark was visible the needle area did emit a white glow.

I follow sonddek’s argument about doing without brushes insofar it pertains to the large sort of ordinary dust. But his argument breaks down with regard to micro dust and the other contaminants that get deep into the grooves.

In case anyone thinks that such contaminants do not exist you should see the white piece of paper kept under my ionizer after 6 months; or the filthy filter paper when it is removed from my state of the art air purifier in my listening room. I have to wear a mask when taking it out.

I am against the use of both carbon fibre brushes and Nagaoka rollers; I have ruined records in past using these. However I find microfiber cloth used with light pressure on a record is effective and safe.

My own view is that sonddeck is to be encouraged in his efforts and I have learned from him. If I don’t agree with all his views so what? I don’t agree with all of anyone’s views- not even my own!
 
White glow is good. You should only see sparks when something is a few millimetres from the needle.

As regards my views on carbon fibre brushes, I would judge that mine caused more damage to my records in a year or two than avoiding them has caused in two decades. As I made abundantly clear in my posts, my view of cleaning machines is entirely prejudice. Unlike others posting I haven't done the careful experiments on a wide statistical sample of machines and identical records and conditions to be able to offer such definitive advice. People tend to have experiences that confirm the wisdom of their choices. All I said was that I found the idea alarming.
 
I tried sonddek’s useful suggestion to sharpen the pistol needle. I used a small needle file without a handle. After my first attempt there was still no spark. So I tried again.

I don't need to use a Zerostat - possibly because I live in a benign climate and have wool carpet ... but probably because I give each LP a spray with Permostat before Nitty Grittying it - which removes static forever.

I am against the use of both carbon fibre brushes and Nagaoka rollers; I have ruined records in past using these. However I find microfiber cloth used with light pressure on a record is effective and safe.

I am staggered that you have "ruined records" with a CF brush? I use one before and after each play and just lightly touch the hairs to the surface. (Not that there is actually any dust to pick up ! :D ) I find the hairs are so flexible that they bend with the lightest of pressure - and I would've thought the pressure I use is probably less than what you would be using with a MF cloth?

How did you ruin your records? Surely you must have been pressing hard? :confused:

Regards,

Andy
 
andyr

One man's hard is another woman's soft. I go by sound, and all I know is that after using carbon brushes on records I found that background noise increased after a while.

I know someone who examined records with a professional microscope before and after using carbon fibre brushes. It emerged that the carbon fibre brushes caused scratches (presumably these were from microdust rubbed in or onto the grooves).
 
Sonddeck

I sharpened again, this time with a piece of metal.

There is now a strong spark- but it is coming from the hole behind the trigger on the underside of the case.

What do I do next? Help!
 
andyr

One man's hard is another woman's soft. I go by sound, and all I know is that after using carbon brushes on records I found that background noise increased after a while.

I know someone who examined records with a professional microscope before and after using carbon fibre brushes. It emerged that the carbon fibre brushes caused scratches (presumably these were from microdust rubbed in or onto the grooves).

That is extremely interesting, eguth - thanks for posting. :) I will pay more attention to my background noise.

Just as a - slightly relevant - side comment ... a few years ago, I bought a 16 inch "master" of some record, from a US record pressing plant. (Sara someone?) This was not made from vinyl and it came with instructions to treat it very carefully.

I stupidly decided that it must be Nitty Gritty'd before playing ... and the result was that my $100 record was unplayable - due to the high level of hiss (which I had produced by cleaning it! :( ). What a dickhead! :mad:

But I thought vinyl was tough enough to withstand this sort of treatment! :) certainly, on many LPs I hear zero hiss/snap/crackle & pop ... even though they have been wiped lightly with a CF brush.

So could the key point be "lightly"? :)

Regards,

Andy
 
andyr

I know nothing about your system, your speakers or your hearing.

Please do not take what follows in the wrong way.

I know people who have good hearing and one or two with not so good hearing. I also have heard systems where the high frequency response is severely curtailed or even virtually non- existent- usually because there is no tweeter or an inadequate one.

Any of these factors could affect the perceived amount of background noise.

I am especially sensitive to hum and background noise. This MAY because, as part of my training as a musician, I was given ear training. That involved directing my aural attention very pointedly to what is being heard. It seems to have had a permanent affect on my perception.

My own system has separate mono amps for the tweeters. These amps reproduce up to 100KHz. All my cartridges go up to at least 40khZ. My horn tweeters do not go much above 20 KHz but ultra high frequencies do affect the perceived sound of low frequencies- even deep bass.
 
Sonddeck

I sharpened again, this time with a piece of metal.

There is now a strong spark- but it is coming from the hole behind the trigger on the underside of the case.

What do I do next? Help!

You may have a piece of fluff or hair shorting to your hand from the point where the wire joins the crystal tube. Try blowing hard where the spark occurs. I think this kind of failure is why I originally dismantled the case. Without a case it is necessary to hold the device in such a way as to avoid sparking at the wrong end of the wire. Moisture given off by your skin promotes this problem, which is why I have electrical tape around the base of the wire, as snug to the crystal tube as possible. So try re-sharpening, blowing hard around the trigger base, and holding the gun near the end of handle and trigger.

A little bit of knowledge about electrostatics will help.
 
But I thought vinyl was tough enough to withstand this sort of treatment! :)

Vinyl is so soft you can write on it with your finger nail. It's soft enough that a stylus can stamp hard grit into the surface irrevocably.

...certainly, on many LPs I hear zero hiss/snap/crackle & pop ... even though they have been wiped lightly with a CF brush.

So could the key point be "lightly"? :)

Not the key point, but the key word: cumulative. The motto of forensic physics is "every contact leaves a trace". We need CSI Vinyl to solve this one.
 
What I have been reading, amounts to in many cases as sheer vinyl hypochondria, born from using a faded marketplace - less popular technology,information is lost and where myths can easily develop in its place. with each passing year. There are carbon brushes ...and carbon brushes. Some that just sweep dust in a neat vertical row on a record and leave it there! Then others, that have added plush pile velvet padding plus the carbon bristles. The grip handles of which provide 'the static charge' when gripped to both allow and extract the dirt away.

Then there is the vinyl that no matter how many times it is pulled out of its covers and played, no problem of 'dirt attaching to the record when actually playing ' is ever the problem, anyway. Yet they are not contained in any special or exotic anti-static sleeves.

Frankly if one recording gave me such 'navel gazing worry' as manifested here, I would promptly pitch it in the bin! If life meant being overly concerned ...with some record. I would look for some CD equivalent replacement and be done with it! We might have Vinyl..........but technology has moved on! Stuff the all encompassing anti- digital club like nostalgia. Be content at what vinyl is, respect its own set of limitations , or replace it.

'The groove scratches' talked about (as observed under some powerful microscope) after brushing with brushes containing a million or more bristles. I find the possibility (with pressure applied- so bending them !) of any one or more of these million hairs 'scratching vinyl' - scientifically preposterous-unless glued rigidly together in mass. Look instead for traces of left- behind 'micro dust'/ pitting from being washed by water based components / or glazed 'slide grazing' from a passing stylus. Depending on the shape and weight per square inch pressure of the downward pressure applied. 1 gram of playing weight applied in a .00 2x.007 elliptical stylus equals 66.000 pounds per sq.inch. Yet the slightest loss of contact of stylus with the actual grooves whilst playing and the grooves get a bigger punishing.
I have never brought or used a second hand record. Whose and what 'pick up' was used previously, I would ask? After a few passes , any recording has a new made impression on it, from the very stylus you are using. One made, to allow the pick up to accommodate itself in the grooves thereafter.. It might be a slightest spectrograph - discernible 'wisp' to that - or another situation :what one would think, to be 'a mucky excavation site' with the high frequencies shaved away. Some heavy weight pickups make the grooves look like 'daggy' fused splutter' as if one has applied a hot welding wand into the depressions..It depends on the cartridge's 'track-ability'.,... , compliance figures, stylus shape , tip mass, arm mass & geometry, and finally playing pressure. Out of which -also comes the degree of heat generated by 'the pass contact' of stylus and vinyl.

I remember being told by a technician for a national Communications Network that he had microscopically witnessed 'pitting' from water being used on vinyl discs.The advantage of wet solvent cleaning machines was the quick speed of cleaning 'solvent' fluid application ON, the scrubbing and the instant vacuuming off of residues OFF, before 'interaction damage' gets a chance to fully happen. Against that, the slower time factor method of hand application of similar measures then things get the chance 'to settle and solidify'.

Some so called vinyl -released over the years -varied in constituency, being in some cases of straight out inferior quality material - leaving aside, every other consideration. That is even leaving adside, the energy crisis of the early 70's ,where some major labels were even into recycling. Using and placing unsold records.....back into the slurry mix for pressing - to create new ones. Factors about making sure the re-used vinyl was pristine as newly produced 'virgin vinyl' - forget it!. I knew of cases where people got a new record and in the playing surfaces...trapped... was bits of some label from the part of that record's 'previous vinyl life'. The factory had not even properly 'dough-nut chopped' the previous label out ,Then we got vinyl only 2/3 the thickness of what was previously used.- The RCA Dynagroove era-where the grooves were deliberately adjusted for spherical stylii against 'groove pinch'. How many 'mushroom domed' discs did we see, even if they were meant to be flat? Tons! Just think about the skewed geometry of a stylus contacting both sides of the grooves in a level position, trying to climb slowly uphill to the label. That;s if the disc was not warped as well as part of ' the thin disc ' problem.

When those Zerostat type guns first came out , various respected reviewers warned that in using them near a recording :the manner of how they were used, was paramount.I.E: How they were switched on and off in proximity to the disc, the distances at what they were to be used, and the 'types of moving pattern' to be used, in the application . Otherwise they found in their tests, it actually increased static charging of the record...yes, aggravated the problem!
 
Vinyl is so soft you can write on it with your finger nail. It's soft enough that a stylus can stamp hard grit into the surface irrevocably.



Not the key point, but the key word: cumulative. The motto of forensic physics is "every contact leaves a trace". We need CSI Vinyl to solve this one.
I find the above - just Zen-like pixie nonsense material ...meant to fool, impress and dazzle the uninitiated!
Now place a set of paper on a record cover containing its recording. Grab a ball point pen and start writing firmly, pressing down.....OMG. 'A deep impression went right through the cover & sleeve , 'actually damaging the record grooves'. I think I have just earned a CSI Degree with 1st Class Honors in Vinyl Forensics at the Soddek University. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Perhaps explain now to the rest of the readers here why it is possible for a stylus to reach up to 600 degrees Fahrenheit (yes 600 degrees F) flash-point in the grooves and yet the grooves survive, Yet a mere touch with one of those dastardly carbon fiber brushes you hate with all those millions of fibers -far thinner than human hair- , can permanently damage Vinyl ???!!!:D:D:D

Here's one real magical fact for you, Sonddek It IS possible for a stylus can be called on to change direction so quickly - and as far as gravitational pull forces are concerned -at greater forces than for a space rocket, leaving for space. Taking the small stylus mass & size in consideration -proportionally if 'sized up' .against the size of the rocket!
 
andyr

I know nothing about your system, your speakers or your hearing.

Please do not take what follows in the wrong way.

I know people who have good hearing and one or two with not so good hearing. I also have heard systems where the high frequency response is severely curtailed or even virtually non- existent- usually because there is no tweeter or an inadequate one.

Any of these factors could affect the perceived amount of background noise.

My own system has separate mono amps for the tweeters. These amps reproduce up to 100KHz. All my cartridges go up to at least 40khZ. My horn tweeters do not go much above 20 KHz but ultra high frequencies do affect the perceived sound of low frequencies- even deep bass.

Hi eguth,

Certainly you might listen to my system and pick up hiss that I don't (because my HF hearing is shot). :)

But it can produce HF at least as good as yours can - so it is not the equipment which is hiding the hiss. :) My Maggie ribbon tweeters are rated to 40KHz; my Benz Ebony LP, like your cartridges, to "at least 40KHz". I have 6 mono amps powering my 3-way active Maggies and the amps have an upper-end -3dB point of 150KHz; the preamp possibly a little less.

Regards,

Andy
 
sonddeck

Your method of blowing through the hole to clear any debris has worked; I now get a spark only from the muzzle of the gun and not from the underside hole.

However I only get this when the gun makes a ‘click’ sound as the trigger is pulled backwards. I think that sometimes I was pulling it too slowly.

The spark is only visible in a dark room.

With all this weekly sharpening of the needle won’t it soon be worn down to a useless nothing?

I think Mr. Zerostat will be turning over in his grave when he learns that sonddeck has given it the kiss of eternal life.

Just in case others might benefit further from your expertise could you explain how to dismantle the case? And what to use to fix it back together again after putting electrical tape around the base? Thanks.

Best,

Eguth
 
Your method of blowing through the hole to clear any debris has worked.

It's important to understand why it worked. Very likely a tiny piece of fluff, perhaps barely visible, was creating a path of least resistance (literally) between the piezo crystal output at the base of the wire and the trigger which is effectively earthed by your hand. You are big and predominantly wet, and therefore represent an enormous reservoir of electrical substance which looks like earth to the voltage coming from the crystals. So whenever you get sparking in the wrong places with this device, try blowing hard there to remove fluff, and improve insulation. Air is quite a good insulator and that's why it's hard for the needle to produce an adequate quantity of ions.

However I only get this when the gun makes a ‘click’ sound as the trigger is pulled backwards. I think that sometimes I was pulling it too slowly.

You want to avoid a click sound. A click means a rapid discharge, to some other body, and effectively stops the needle from spraying ions. You should pump the trigger fast enough to produce a quiet hissing sound from the needle (yes, you can hear it ionising air), but no clicks. If you get clicks you're going too fast, or your needle needs sharpening, or you have fluff or some other unwanted earthing. If you hear clicks from the needle that is usually because it has discharge to the plastic case. Again, that will dramatically reduce the extent to which the gun successfully produces ionised air.

With all this weekly sharpening of the needle won’t it soon be worn down to a useless nothing?

You don't need to sharpen much on each occasion. One quick scrape is usually enough to remove oxide and expose a jagged tip. Needles are not very expensive to replace. I haven't needed to in 25 years, but when the day comes, I shall solder on another needle with pride and treat myself to an ale with some of the money I've saved by not repeatedly buying zerostats.

Just in case others might benefit further from your expertise could you explain how to dismantle the case?

I think I took a hammer to it. Seriously, be a bit careful and Refer to my pictures (links repeated below) to see what's inside.

And what to use to fix it back together again after putting electrical tape around the base?

Whoops! Didn't think of that. I have been using mine without the case for 23 of its 25 years. You have to learn to hold it the right way to avoid sparking, but the case is fairly unnecessary.

If you are a Star Trek fan and want to dismantle it carefully and then glue it back together you probably could. YMMV.

P.S. here are the pictures again:
1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

4.jpg
 
I find the above - just Zen-like pixie nonsense material ...meant to fool, impress and dazzle the uninitiated!
Now place a set of paper on a record cover containing its recording. Grab a ball point pen and start writing firmly, pressing down.....OMG. 'A deep impression went right through the cover & sleeve , 'actually damaging the record grooves'. I think I have just earned a CSI Degree with 1st Class Honors in Vinyl Forensics at the Soddek University. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Perhaps explain now to the rest of the readers here why it is possible for a stylus to reach up to 600 degrees Fahrenheit (yes 600 degrees F) flash-point in the grooves and yet the grooves survive, Yet a mere touch with one of those dastardly carbon fiber brushes you hate with all those millions of fibers -far thinner than human hair- , can permanently damage Vinyl ???!!!:D:D:D

Here's one real magical fact for you, Sonddek It IS possible for a stylus can be called on to change direction so quickly - and as far as gravitational pull forces are concerned -at greater forces than for a space rocket, leaving for space. Taking the small stylus mass & size in consideration -proportionally if 'sized up' .against the size of the rocket!

As I said above, I suspect that the problem with brushes is that they may move surface dust, a fraction of which is hard grit, deeper into the grooves. The bottom of the groove is a bit of a trap for dust, whereas dust on the flats is fairly harmless. If a brush does move grit from the flats into the troughs, then your 600 degree stylus is ideally designed to stamp it into the vinyl forever. Over several years I can imagine that increasing record noise. But this is no less speculative than your view - I'm just fantasizing aloud.
 
One other thing: there may be an advantage in removing the case. I recall that the needle used to discharge to the case if I pumped hard. It may be that without the case the needle can reach a higher voltage and produce more ions per pump. Maybe.
 


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