EU In or Out part VI

[Colin Barron]

I find myself in agreement with you both. I would prefer a very narrow and harrowing remain vote which 'may' shake them to begin to as Paul says "To force them to do something difficult, to respond to the people, to find an answer"

We must not ignore what our marginalised and disenfranchised UKIP voters are telling us.

Remain means business as usual.

 

[gassor]

On a Sky News Q&A Jeremy Corbyn said the EU was needed to tackle climate change and solve the refugee crisis - but called for it to change "dramatically" and become more "democratic".

Those who are even vaguely supportive of the Labour Party should recognise in the above one of the core arguments for remaining in the EU.

On it's own the UK can do next to SFA about any global issue, but even the reluctant EU supporter Corbyn can see that the EU can make some impact on climate change and the refugee crisis when it puts it's mind to it. Hence he wants to work at making it more responsive to the electorate of all its member countries.

 

[TheDecameron]

I find myself in agreement with you both. I would prefer a very narrow and harrowing remain vote which 'may' shake them to begin to as Paul says "To force them to do something difficult, to respond to the people, to find an answer"

We must not ignore what our marginalised and disenfranchised UKIP voters are telling us.

My fear of a narrow remain vote is that it will active more figures like Mair and others in BF/BNP/EDL, that they would not settle for the outcome and instead step up intimidation in communities and bypass the democratic process. And Farage will just keep coming back, like bloody Dracula sitting up in his casket every night.

 

[Philim]

It means huge instability in the financial markets on Friday morning and we all know what that can end up costing us.

To be fair the markets have been unstable since 2009. It'll probably be up by Monday lunchtime once everyone realises the world hasn't ended.

 

[merlin]

That's where I think you'll find you're deeply mistaken.

Remain will give the EU a green light for further integration and the forced adoption of the Euro coupled with less powers for our Parliament.

The EU is failing rapidly, I cannot see how more EU is the answer to its ills.

Any chance of anything remotely resembling evidence John? Or facts to back up your assertion?

 

[merlin]

To be fair the markets have been unstable since 2009. It'll probably be up by Monday lunchtime once everyone realises the world hasn't ended.

Look what's happened already to Sterling in light of the uncertainty. Are you really happy to take that risk with the nation's economy in the face of overwhelming independent advice to not do so?

 

[Cloth-Ears]

Fringe, street action orientated political organisations would be easy to control, in the scheme of things.

For example, actually going to significant violent demonstration, rather than staying at attempting to gain respectability while maintaining a subtle perceived threat of violence, would blow any gains in credibility, demonise them further and open them to arrests, restraining orders and possibly even proscribing as terrorist organisations.

I don't think its a big threat really. There is a police force and courts to deal with it if it happens.

 

[Philim]

Look what's happened already to Sterling in light of the uncertainty. Are you really happy to take that risk with the nation's economy in the face of overwhelming independent advice to not do so?

I haven't decided either way. But exports would be cheaper and debt would reduce.

Let's be honest economists and businesses like consistency and most are global so do not want the hassle. However if it does happen those same businesses will go into work Friday dust themselves down and get back to it. The world will not fall down. There will be initial market changes but they will realign I have no doubt. Even the IMF admitted this week that Brexit if managed correctly could only impact the UK economy slightly and avoid recession.

Neither scenario is risk free. Europe could easily drop back into recession. The far right movement could grow. Equally we could just plod along as we are.

 

[Colin Barron]

That's where I think you'll find you're deeply mistaken.

Remain will give the EU a green light for further integration and the forced adoption of the Euro coupled with less powers for our Parliament.

The EU is failing rapidly, I cannot see how more EU is the answer to its ills.

I think you are correct, i meant in the short term.

 

[TheDecameron]

Now is a once in a lifetime opportunity- to take back control.

 

[matthewr]

He revealed he has a bias, this isn't in any doubt. The man said it in plain English.

Yes, it is what he said. You need to watch it again.

Here's what he said:

"I will put my cards on the table, partly because it's true and partly because I feel increasingly that I have been forced to, I am obviously going to vote remain."

Which to any reasonable reading is, I think, just him expressing his view and only as a somewhat reluctant aside at that.

By the way, I'm not criticising the man so I have no idea why you're so bothered.

Because you used the word "bias" which strongly implies unfairness or prejudice with the added emphasis of "this isn't in any doubt. The man said it in plain English".

So if one is saying, as I am, here is a well qualified, independent expert with some significant and relevant information it's important not to let (apparent) aspersions against his evidence go unchallenged. If you don't mean "bias" or to suggest any partisanship then fine, although in that case it would appear that your original, very specific remark, was somewhat meaningless.

 

[TPA]

I can't see an exit vote winning - the establishment wouldn't allow it. There is no way the EU or our own Westminster elite would possibly allow the population to actually have a say in the future of the country.

There is an inexorable path that we will tread, within the EU, and that is that. Politics is merely entertainment for the chattering classes, regardless of which party is elected, we've seen that over the last 30 years, there is no fundamental, or noticeable shift in policy worth noting. Yes, a few threats but they will all tow the European line of mild austerity, and then measured infrastructure investment in keeping with GDP and borrowing guidelines.

 

[matthewr]

Remain will give the EU a green light for further integration and the forced adoption of the Euro coupled with less powers for our Parliament.

Sorry, the idea that the EU could force the UK to adopt the Euro is just flat out, bonkers, nonsense.

 

[merlin]

I'm not a gambler Philim.

The consensus is that leaving is a huge financial gamble that even the most generous commentators suggest might only result in a slight downturn.

Where's the positives? With three days to go there still aren't any IMHO. There are lots of imaginary emotive terms being bandied about but not one of them has stood up to scrutiny.

When an EU legal expert accuses the Leave campaign in particular of "lying on an industrial scale" surely people have to take notice?

The so called positives are being made up. Fabricated. The rest of the world is looking on with a mixture of horror and bemusement from what I can see. I do hope enough of my fellow countrymen step back from the brink and listen to their heads and not their hearts.

 

[TheDecameron]

There is no way the EU or our own Westminster elite would possibly allow the population to actually have a say in the future of the country.

Are you saying " The Establishment" would refuse to enact the democratic outcome of the referendum?

 

[matthewr]

There is no way the EU or our own Westminster elite would possibly allow the population to actually have a say in the future of the country.

In which case I will look fondly back on my vote on Thursday and in the last election as my last chance to have a say in the running of our country.

 

[Cloth-Ears]

Can't the HoC legally decide anyway ?

Afaik a majority of MPs are pro remain. If they decided to defy the referendum, couldn't they do it ?

 

[Philim]

I can't see an exit vote winning - the establishment wouldn't allow it. There is no way the EU or our own Westminster elite would possibly allow the population to actually have a say in the future of the country.

There is an inexorable path that we will tread, within the EU, and that is that. Politics is merely entertainment for the chattering classes, regardless of which party is elected, we've seen that over the last 30 years, there is no fundamental, or noticeable shift in policy worth noting. Yes, a few threats but they will all tow the European line of mild austerity, and then measured infrastructure investment in keeping with GDP and borrowing guidelines.

+1 game over.

 

[Joe Hutch]

Here's what he said:

"I will put my cards on the table, partly because it's true and partly because I feel increasingly that I have been forced to, I am obviously going to vote remain."

Which to any reasonable reading is, I think, just him expressing his view and only as a somewhat reluctant aside at that.

Indeed. Anyway, what would you expect him to say? 'I've studied the issues in great depth, and my opinion is, well, who knows what we should do? Just toss a coin'.

 

[Cloth-Ears]

Perhaps Friday will be the day they fake an alien invasion.