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ESL57 question (level matching, bass output)...

JTC

JTC

PFM Villager...
Last night I tried a different amp than my Nait 2 with the ESLs. Immediately we noticed a definite shift of the sound towards the left hand side, which I think I hadn't noticed before* due to the Nait 2 having a balance control which I've obviously used without thinking. The other amp has no balance control.

On investigating further (swapping cables, speakers etc.) I think one of my ESLs isn't giving much bass output. I'm hesitating to say 'no' bass output, i.e. panels not functioning, as I'd have thought that it would be more obvious. However, up close to the panels I'm not hearing a lot except from the centre (HF) panel.

Anyone know why this might be? I can understand one panel developing a fault, but both at the same time? Could it be a loose wire? Something else? There are no crackles or other odd noises, and the upper portion of the music - i.e. the middle panel - sounds absolutely fine. My limited knowledge of ESLs seems to suggest that it's usually the HF panels that go before anything else.

I'm hoping it's nothing major, given that I don't have boxes and that driving them to Quad would be a hell of an undertaking. BUT, something's not quite right...

* embarrassing that I hadn't noticed, but then I wonder much the brain was able to 'in-fill' from the working speaker after I'd reduced the gain different per side using the Nait 2's balance control...
 
Sorry to hear that John. Hope some advice here can get you sorted.

However, I can recommend a good pub B&B near to Huntingdon if you need it!
 
Ta. I disconnected the better ESL and had a listen and there’s definitely some bass output but it’s quite a bit lower in output than the other panel. In practice it’s not as obvious as you’d think as I think the ear/brain does some fancy stuff to infill from the better speaker.

Anyway, my choices are to either live with it (it’s not as bad as it could be), remove panels and send to OTA for refurb (~£300 the pair, but requires some desoldering and resoldering the refurbed panels) or to sell on as a project for someone else. Or, maybe, a trip away....

Buggeration!
 
Most likely the EHT supply is failing.

Or a bass panel has developed a leak, which is pulling down the EHT. But first place is drooping EHT.

The step up is easy to change, and easy to measure if you have the appropriate Mad Professor type probe.
 
Either rebuild or buy new EHT units, most likely one is breaking down more than the other - but if both never done before they will both be suffering.

While in there, clean all the dust and crud off the panel dust covers (I found baby wipes to work well), and you can then inspect panels for any arc damage.

There’s a thread here somewhere when I did mine many years back.

Ah, Paul beat me to it :)
 
I would advise you to leave both speakers plugged in overnight and then revisit the situation tomorrow . If the bass is 'restored' or improved on the suspect speaker, then as previous posts have suggested you may have an issue with the EHT block and consequently the panels will not be charging correctly / swiftly Can you confirm that there is no background noise from the 'faulty ' bass panel(s) when no music being played. ?
 
brecklandboy said:
Can you confirm that there is no background noise from the 'faulty ' bass panel(s) when no music being played. ?
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No noise.

I have some paperwork about what work was done on them over the years. I think the panels have all been renewed in the past 10 years so it could well be the EHT. The strange thing is that I think the imbalance is somewhat offset by the speaker positioning, inasmuch as I think I get a bit of room gain in the mid-bass from the left speaker which was pushing the (properly working) speaker up in perceived volume to veer the sound off to the left, but having swapped them I think it's almost fixed things. I bet most people wouldn't notice it now, but I do and once you *do* notice it, it's difficult not to keep listening out for it.

Is the EHT easy to rebuild/replace? I have to be sensible about this, as they weren't hugely expensive speakers to buy in the first place and I don't want to have to start replacing everything. Feeling of deja vu about this - didn't someone have '63 issues and go through just this dilemma last week or the week before?

Disclaimer: with the weaker speaker in the left position, the sound is still extremely good, exceptionally so. Clearly the ear is more forgiving about bass imbalance than it would be about treble...
 
That was me, hence the pub B&B recommendation!

I took the view that I’d become the custodians of something rather iconic, and despite not really having the cash spare, went all in on a full panel replacement. In my case all panels were original, and 33 years old.

I’m glad I did as they are a joy in their own way. For full disclosure, in my small room they don’t behave perfectly, but with a little parametric EQ well enough to overcome 90% of that. I’m hoping Mrs Wb allows both the 63s and the Yamaha NS1000Ms to stay, and box-swapping can be done for free when the desire dictates!

Anyway, you know you won’t live with a compromised setup, so either sell them, or get them fixed. If you sell, let me know as I’d happily buy/repair and move on to a new home.
 
One tip I've used when I suspected that my 57s were imbalanced (they were not) - place the speakers about 2ft apart, facing each other and feed them a mono signal, or just parallel them into one channel of your amplifier, stick your head between the two, and you will clearly hear any difference between them, with (almost) no interference from the room. I suppose you could do it up a 20ft pole in the garden if you really need to know.
 
I just disconnected either side and had a listen to each in isolation. Not scientific, but I could hear a definite difference in the output of the bass panels. But the 'leaving the speakers plugged in' thing might have some mileage. Perhaps it was the faffing around on Friday when I was trying the new amp. I don't recall powering them down though. I'm off to do some running sort of thing this morning (a 10K on a hangover, what could possibly go wrong?) but as it's Father's Day, I fully intend to spend some quality me time with them later on :)
 
Whaleblue said:
If you sell, let me know as I’d happily buy/repair and move on to a new home.
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I'm not sure yet. They've had a lot of work done over the years, and sound stunning apart from this bass level thing. It could be I just live with them as is - which I think I can do, but let's see - and get them refurbed next time I have reason to be down south, or wait until something else needs doing.
 
JTC said:
I'm not sure yet. They've had a lot of work done over the years, and sound stunning apart from this bass level thing. It could be I just live with them as is - which I think I can do, but let's see - and get them refurbed next time I have reason to be down south, or wait until something else needs doing.
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From my experience of my 63s these speakers are worth maintaining/preserving. I hope you find a way to do that :)

My offer was partly because I’d love to compare 57s with 63s!
 
JTC said:
I just disconnected either side and had a listen to each in isolation. Not scientific, but I could hear a definite difference in the output of the bass panels. But the 'leaving the speakers plugged in' thing might have some mileage. Perhaps it was the faffing around on Friday when I was trying the new amp. I don't recall powering them down though. I'm off to do some running sort of thing this morning (a 10K on a hangover, what could possibly go wrong?) but as it's Father's Day, I fully intend to spend some quality me time with them later on :)
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Listen to both speakers in the same location before forming any opinion. Panels are odd things as you get almost as much energy out of the back as out the front, so bass cancellation is a real issue and your scenario may actually be room/speaker interaction.
 
Annoyingly, I'm going to be unable to do any of this for at least a week if not two, as my listening space has been invaded by furniture from another room (that we've just started getting some work done in). So, I'll be back on this thread in about a couple of weeks. Meantime, at least I can still reach behind various items to get to my headphones :)
 
ESL 57s are so cheap that it's probably more cost effective to buy another one and swap it. Individual ones in working order go for next to nothing, even pairs are cheap.
 
I did manage to have another listen last night and I’d say that both bass panels on one ESL are equally quiet relative to the same panels on the other ESL. I believe that all panels have been renewed by OTA over the past 10 years, so would this point very strongly to the EHT of the weaker panel being at fault?

I rather like my ESLs, and the above suggestion makes sense, however I am tempted to renew the EHT units together (both ESLs) with OTA PSUs. Is that overkill? As I’ve temporarily misplaced my bundle of paperwork relating to my ESLs, I can’t recall if the EHTs have had any recent servicing, so they could well be original. I just find it suspicious that both bass panels sound equally quiet relative to the treble on the one ESL, but much fuller-bodied and louder (on both bass panels) on the other ESL...
 
I would definitely change both at same time - that way you know you full EHT on both. If OTA have already replaced panels though, I would hope they also checked/replaced the EHT units at same time - this is a very common problem. Maybe they only replaced one, as other was OK at time (at that other original is now failing) - but that is false economy of they did IMO. Only way to really confirm is to pop the back off and take a photo - it will be immediately obvious if it is original or not. Not sure if OTA

Lastly - I assume you have swapped the speakers around to ensure its not some weird room effect?

Wow - I just looked at the price of those OTA PSU boards - expensive! I'd just buy 2 of their EHT replacement boards unless you also want to update the back side of your 57s? But before spending money on either, I would first pop the back off both and take some photos - my earlier comments were really based on them having never been serviced. It could be that someone replaced OTA panels in only one speaker, and the other is still original - it is well documented that OTA panels sound different to the original Quad ones...
 
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I’ll dig out the paperwork tonight, hopefully, to see what was done and when. And, yeah, I will power them down and pop the back off over the next few days to have a look.
 
If I were to replace the boards, would I have to mess around with melting beeswax etc., or is that a different part of the ESL?
 
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