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EMT 927

Hi Patrick from Athens,
The 927, in my system, sounds much better than 930 and 950.More “authority”, faster, cleaner, “holographic”. I think Van Vliet's 139Stb and the Ortofon arm on it, are much better than 155st and Banana arm combination.
I have hade several turntables but none gave me the pleasure of the music as the 927
 
Hi geovar!

And have you tried banana + VV 139?
ALso have you had a chance to compare
EMT's to big Micro Seiki's? RX/SX 5000, 8000?

Cheers,
jk
 
still prefer the look of the gates turntable to the EMT as used by BBC radio and here @ united Biscuits radio and commercial stations pirate stations for many years

http://www.ubn.org.uk/images/Studio1.jpg

Talking of radio studios

http://www.flickr.com/photos/terella/156346399/ classic FM

the tower on the right can anyone educate us is that the CD players? What are Three machines to there left please? Jingle machines. I thought they used min disc technology for those now
 
Hi geovar!

And have you tried banana + VV 139?
ALso have you had a chance to compare
EMT's to big Micro Seiki's? RX/SX 5000, 8000?

Cheers,
jk
No I had not the opportunity to try those turntables.
Regarding Banana arm now, I had the chance to choose Banana or Ortofon and finally I voted for Ortofon 12” arm even if it was more expensive.
 
I was going to post the summary of my EMT930 adventure already some time ago but
only now cleared my mind enough.

I've bought a good looking EMT930 set (930, 929, 155st, TSD15vdH) from a Croatian audiophile,
thinking I could refurbish it myself....nothing more illusory in my case.
I've approached it with quite an idiotic enthusiasm, after reading how sturdy EMT's are,idiotically decomposed the deck for cleaning and...got stuck trying to put it back together for several long months.
There was no free lunch, every move was costly, even stupid idler change.
Being mechanically handicapped and retarded when it comes to "mechanical intelligence",
I've gone myself through the nightmares of: platter leveling,axis alignments,motor rattling (sending it to Germany and back), idler reaming (yes, there are 2 slightly different idler axis diameters depending on the age of 930, a thing even hardly known to some EMT servicemen, but of course I had to come across it), learning to measure w&f and trying to get it right. Not to mention minor things like trying to get 0.1mm M5 washers for alignment. Impossible in Barcelona!

After looong months (7 or so) of fight with 0.1% of my invention and the rest the invaluable help of HM, the w&f was still 2x the norm and I finally gave up admitting my failure and decided to send the deck to the pro. It took him 3 months to get it right with unexpected surprises and actually even recalling/learning some of a subtle nuisances of the EMT construction (!) on the way. from bits of info that I got, getting the w&f right was a hard task, impossible to do without a precise test LP in the first place (a special one with brass insert, forget all the eccentric commercial test LP's). The main source seemed to be th washer but that was not all of the w&f story as IIRC the idler has been finally changed too. The arm was another Pandora's box: despite looking like new and passing the blowing tests one axis turned out to be bent and the cart connector needed to be changed (one pin was not contacting). That 155st was wired omitting input transformers and one channel disconnected (the mono I've heard was due to a crosstalk within 155st on the summing resistor on the phone output!) was a minor thing. Thanks goodness the main bearing and the motor were ok (although the acrylic subplatter has some play...which is irrelevant).

TSD15 was another story. I bought it shortly after vdH retip and, backed up by HM's guessing that such a noble cartridge house would not let a crap out of it, I've assumed at least this was ok. Nothing more illusory again. As confirmed by vdH directly, when retipping TSD's they only change the tip, without paying any attention to the shape of suspension, magnets,etc. That is, what they had effectively done on my cart was to put a new, high tech needle on a useless 40yrs old cart...So, the TSD needed a costly EMT rebuilt. I've went for the SPH. When the cart came back it was misstracking and distorting like hell. Back it went to the EMT. After some resistance they've admitted it was not ok and have done a second rebuilt (free of charge of course)....more waiting. Since then it behaves ok.

After getting the deck back, it was the time to work on 155st. I've changed all the elco caps to Elna cerafine and trimpots to modern hermatically closed ones. In the mean time I've managed to burn the power supply series transistor...Then came the 155st calibration...another weeks....Without a *reliable* milivoltmeter and a stable mV signal generator this was like shooting in a dark or spitting against the wind. I'm not sure I've calibrated it 100% ok and I don't care actually as I don't like it's transistor sound anyway and will replace it by a DIY tube unit asap.
On the mechanical side of things would be interesting to process the test signals with Paul R's software to see the change, but it seems that his project is still on hold...

Summarizing, from my very personal and singular experience, refurbishing EMT930 was a nightmare, impossible to do *right* without the appropriate experience and test eq. Most of it has been my mistakes and lack of experience of course, but there were things I'd never discover (like the bent axis in the arm). Honestly and without any advertising plug of any kind intended, in my particular case it would have been cheaper, faster and nicer to buy an already refurbished EMT930 from one of the known sources, getting it repainted as a bonus (a repaint of mine would cost 450Eu and I do have cosmetical issues with some of the prints washed out). On the positive side--I've learned few things ;-) the deck is awesome and was definitely worth the pain.

Things to do next: power controller and a second arm (SME3012).

Cheers,
jk
 
A very interesting story.
We realize that things that look like a bargain often are not.
We realize that after 30+ years things wear out. And with things like this deck, a lot of people may have already worked on it.
And we realize that those fantastic rebuilds offered by certain people aren't as expensive as they seem. In fact they look like very good value! I suppose you haven't kept track of the hours you've put in?
I thought the reason they kept on making the 930 after the introduction of the direct-drives was that it was easy to maintain!
The direct-drives are complicated, but they are built in modules like a computer, so you can easily take a complete module out and quickly replace it.
Thanks for the valuable lesson.
 
That's quite a story - I'm glad you got there in the end! I read somewhere that some of the 930s can be a bit of a dog's dinner, but I didn't have any major issues with the 927.

What sort of cost was the EMT cartridge rebuild? I have some 78 ones that I'd like to get going, but I suspect I can't afford it.
 
First of all it must be said clear that the majority of problems--the proper alignment,
came out of my plain stupidity. I do not blame the deck--when I got it it was in a very good shape for it's
age (apart from the very hidden arm issues). But anyway the 40yrs old broadcasting deck will need some tender love and care,
be it built be Germans, Englishmen or Marsians. It was my idiotically naive thought that I can clean and bring it up to the specs myself...
Look, there are 3 axes to be aligned: platter, idler and motor.
First to go is the platter--it must be leveled, then 2 other axes are aligned to it.
By carelessly taking out the main bearing for cleaning I've spoiled all the alignment.
Hours of work to bring it back? Jowcol, we are talking about months and angelic attitude and
patience of HM to explain me few basic things! I was a complete newbie when it comes
to mechanics. Even such a seemingly prosaic thing as changing motor's bearing ball
gave me problems as some washer got loose and the motor started to rattle.

But even had I not spoiled the alignment and let the motor in peace, mere changing the idler can be quite a task and does not automatically guarantee that the w&f will be within the norm. From my microscopic experience,without a good w&f test equipment (the test LP is crucial, my Clearaudio and The Ultimate Analog are eccentric) and some experience (I was too stupid for example to look at the worn washer) getting the nominal w&f is a bit of a gamble. Not to mention complications if the your idler axis is the old type, 0.1mm thicker than the newer...(but I think HM passed the info and the issue will be solved). I don't know 927, but I guess it's similar as the w&f spec is even more tight there.

Same with electronics--after changing the elco caps and trimmpots (a MUST after 40yrs, one of my channels was dead because of a faulty cap), the unit has to be recalibrated. At 1mV, or even 10mV it can be a nightmare.

Cart rebuild---IIRC it was 600Eu for SPH, for vdH would be 700Eu. But that was for TSD15, with old mono, OFD65 I guess, the prices may be a bit better.
 
I had two Benz rebuilts of EMT cartridges and they at Benz did all the tricks: cleaning, new diamond, straightend the cantilever, replaced the suspension rubber with a durable one (note that the original EMT rubbers get bad after some years (e.g. four years), even if the cartridge is unused), and did a perfect alignment on cantilever and diamond, and this all for 200 EUR some years ago. Should be around 200 UKP today. Contact the German web site http://www.hifi-ilona.de
Mr.Jacobsen is chief of Benz cartridge repair service.
 
Look at the price of Roksan Shiraz and the Brinkman which are modified EMT cartridges. As far as cartridges go EMT are not outrageous. And you really need to hear the whole turntable working as it was designed to operate. Why buy an Aston Martin and then put cheap tyres on it? I got Van den Hul tip on mine which has a very long life. You should have gone shopping when the pound was stronger - they were a bargain back then. The tonearm design makes it very difficult to properly set up any other cartridge. If EMT stop making cartridges then it would be time for a rethink.

How old is the story about bad suspension rubber in EMT carts?
 
Interesting! How did they sound after the repair?

like an EMT, but with better defined soundstage and better bottom to treble integration. Not a change in character at all, though in quality, like when you get a better selected cartridge when buying new. I liked the results very much.
They at Benz do the tricks even for Koetsu cart repairs.
 
How old is the story about bad suspension rubber in EMT carts?

don't know. I had a handful of EMT carts so far and have some friends working with EMT. Maybe this problem applies only for for certain vintages. From my experience vintage EMT carts sometimes are OK regarding suspension. Though mid-90ies carts often show this problem, and also newer ones.
 
According to my source, the rubber problem +/- persists. I hope I can share the info below:

"For the EMT cart's
it is recommended to send the unit for inspection after 4-6 years. My
recommendation is, not to send it for inspection but use it as long as
possible and then have a complete repair. If you send it for inspection and
the rubber can be replaced, it will be about EUR 200 + shipping + VAT. If
the rubber is too hard it may happen that it can't be replaced exactly.
There are two reasons for that: The rubber sticks to the generator and
either can't removed completely or the generator is damaged when removing
the rubber. If there are rests of the old rubber the new one can't touch the
generator completely and you will resonances in the frequency response. When
the generator becomes damaged it is clear that it has to replaced of course.
When there are the resonances the owner either can live with that or has to
decide for a complete repair. Due to that risk when replacing the rubber to
late I recommend to wait a longer time ans then opt for a complete repair.
So the interval between two repairs is much longer."


hifidaddy: I've followed your contact, asking if they still offer the rebuilds and at what prices.
If the prices are as you say, it might be a very interesting alternative. I'm for example
interested in having an TSD15 vdH, but bought new it's costly.
 
Jowcol, I've looked at the Shiraz prices...my jaw dropped. I'm not sure what is Aston Martin and what are cheap tires in your comparison. For sure I'll not be considering $5k cart which is a mod of $1k one
in the forseenable future. However I'm looking for some options since I'm installing a second arm (3012).
I've been thinking about the classic SPU E. What I'm unsure is how it relates to TSD15? IIRC, TSD15 originates from Ortofon design. Has anybody had a chance to compare the two?

Another question: has anybody tried this copy?

http://www.analog-collector.com/bonus/cellules/default.htm
 
For someone 'new' to EMt this thread has been fascinating. But can I ask..how good do they actually sound? Broadacsting equipment was usually built for reliability and consistency rather than ultimate sound. Perhaps one day I will be able to see one (alongside a restored Thorens 224!). Anyway, brave adventurers, I salute you!
 
There are of course many differences! First a "broadcast" turntable is built (as you say) for reliability, and so is built to precision industrial standards - like a cutting lathe (that everyone forgets about). A domestic turntable however is built with cost as well as performance in mind putting it in a different ballpark.
For example a 927 has a flywheel that would put an average car to shame, and a motor that could drive a washing machine! Most importantly it has high precision bearings that contribute an awful lot to fidelity in unexpected ways.
Having used one of these many times on transmission, I remember that to avoid repeating grooves on transmission the tracking weight was set to be about equal to the average sack of coal! We used to have 2 copies of each disc, on for rehearsal to plough up, and one virgin one for transmission.
One sad thing about the 927, is that it has a felt platter that gathers dust and sprays it onto the B side of any record you are playing!

keith
 


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