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Dutch & Dutch 8c’s

Discussion in 'audio' started by matfff, May 10, 2021.

  1. How do you change source and control volume?
     
  2. poco a poco

    poco a poco I'm Jim

    Keith set up both his demo pair and then my final production pair in my room with a few further adjustments after I had tweaked the positioning about 18 months ago. I was one of the first to get the restore feature after a conversation with Keith and D&D about upgrades and they then put me in that firmware release group. I was considering trying to learn REW and add further curves, but to be honest the sound is so good and I'm enjoying my music so much with these speakers I can't be bothered and I would rather spend the time listening.

    In my case vinyl is still my main / preferred source using one turntable and two arms. So I am using a pre amp, Burmester 808, to feed the 8c's to control volume and link other sources.
     
    Cereal Killer likes this.
  3. Any D&D owner should take the time to learn REW, its dead simple once you get your head wrapped around it. The gains I've found have brought good improvements.

    Create a target curve txt doc, match the response, send to speaker, do the same for L/R - done......... well, there's a few clicks and checks to do between, but it really is that simple.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
  4. RoA

    RoA pfm Member

    Is there a danger in becoming too involved in all the adjustments possible?
     
    matfff likes this.
  5. I suppose there could be, but its not infinite if you get me. It's more a case of maximising the properties you can derive from them really.
     
    RoA likes this.
  6. Tw99

    Tw99 source last

    I'd say it's preferable to get involved in such adjustments that actually do something, rather than the normal audiophile pursuit of tweaking stuff that's more likely to make imaginary differences :)

    I spent quite a number of hours fiddling with the filter and Dirac setup of my MiniDSP SHD when I got it, and tuning the results over a few months. Now it's sounding and measuring how I like it, I don't touch it at all.
     
  7. iansr

    iansr pfm Member

    Anybody interested in room correction - no forget that, anybody interested in obtaining the highest possible fidelity should read Mitchco’s articles on Audiophile Style about Acourate and AudioLens.
     
    Cereal Killer likes this.
  8. Strictly Stereo

    Strictly Stereo Trade: Strictly Stereo

    These tools are not really required with the 8c, but you certainly could use them in lieu of the built-in tools, if you wanted. For Mitchco's own review of the 8c, he set the speakers up using the built-in tools and the same methodology that @Cereal Killer is using here.
     
    Cereal Killer likes this.
  9. Paul Burke

    Paul Burke pfm Member

    100%. I’d say all audiophiles should learn how to use rew and a mic. The set and forget type can do just that, and tweaked can tweak to their hearts content, just in an area that actually matters.

    8c’s aren’t necessary for room correction, there are great options out there, like roon and it’s convolution engine, which is capable of some very powerful stuff if the correct data is input

    Just happens RC is mentioned with 8c’s a lot as it’s built in, they can sound very good with the inbuilt, other alternatives or completely without, since they’re extremely well engineered in many ways that’s often overlooked, probably due to the complexity. There’s a reason most speakers aren’t cardioid, or have polar plots like a dogs dinner, what d&d have done isn’t even remotely easy
     
  10. iansr

    iansr pfm Member

    AudioLens can turn any speaker into an active one with perfect Phase and Time Domain correction - something which is not possible with a Passive crossover - and do room correction into the bargain. MiniDSP and REW are pea shooters in comparison.
     
  11. The joy of REW is it's integrated into the 8c's, its so simple to use:
    • Create a target curve in a txt file by using windows notepad
    • Go to preferences, preferences and chose the 'House Curve' tab then navigate to the your txt file
    • Click 'Calculate target level From response'
    • Equalize the db setting per L/R channel
    • Click 'Match response to target'
    • Click 'Send to file to speaker or group'
    • Select L speaker
    • Select R speaker
    https://support.dutchdutch.com/rew/
     
  12. Knipester

    Knipester pfm Member

    The auralic g1 has its own digital volume control (via roon).

    if playing vinyl I use lanspeaker
     
    Cereal Killer likes this.
  13. Bjork67

    Bjork67 pfm Member

    Cereal killer what's the longest time you have stayed with one set of speakers and kit and felt satisfied? Or do you think there will always be a longing doubt about each thing you buy. I would be very nervous if I was your new puppy .
     
  14. In recent years, the audionet DNA 2.0/EPS and my own speaker build (currently up for sale ;)) lasted 3 years. Before that ATC 50's lasted but due to personal circumstances, had to get something smaller.
    Life has been quite transient over the last decade (divorce and moving up/down the country) but we're now entering a more settled period, hopefully for the foreseeable.

    But its nice that you keep a track of my moves, makes me feel special :p
     
    Rana and Amber Audio like this.
  15. SteveH

    SteveH pfm Member

    I have to admit, despite being an ecstatic advocate of active cardioid speakers, I'm Old Skool and understand little of how they work.

    My understanding is that the D&D8c and the Kii3 have two main selling points: They are active (with all the benefits that brings, which we have known about for decades), and they display cardioid dispersion, i.e. the sound (including low frequencies) is directed towards the listener, thereby avoiding "exciting" the room (and resulting in lovely clarity and lack of smear, which is obvious on listening)?

    I then start to get lost: IIUIC, the Kiis use active drivers on the sides of the speakers to "cancel" low frequencies heading away from the listener? The D&D8c has slits in the side of each speaker - does this achieve the same thing, but passively? How? Both appear to couple low frequencies to the front wall via active rear facing drivers? Is that right? When I set my Kiis up, I simply inputted the relationship of the each individual speaker to the front and side walls (in cm). Why is REW needed for the D&D? Is it achieving something different, or something similar but in a more sophisticated fashion? What am I losing, if anything, by not having it? I am also one of us who sets it up & then leaves it; not a tweaker at all. And also hugely delighted with my setup but genuinely confused about all this room measurement stuff. I guess what I'm saying is that if the speakers don't excite the room (or at least far less than conventional designs), then why the need to measure it?
     
  16. Paul Burke

    Paul Burke pfm Member

    In any average sized room both (though don’t know many details of kii’s) will still excite room modes same as any other speaker, it’s just physics, can’t avoid it. Most Uk rooms will be 50hz and under for main modes. D&d’s are cardioid and constant directivity from 100hz.

    Even though, energy is still sent off axis, just at lower levels, resulting in lower colouration from the room.

    One trick constant directivity speakers can do is time intensity trading, don’t seem to notice many trying this though. Probably unaware of it as it’s pretty rare to be of use and known to many since the vast majority of speakers aren’t constant directivity
     
  17. Strictly Stereo

    Strictly Stereo Trade: Strictly Stereo

    Yes. It works by allowing some of the energy generated by the back of the mid/bass driver cone, which is in opposite phase to the sound generated from the front, to escape from the vents on each side. When the two mix they tend to cancel each other out.

    This could have changed in the two years or so since I stopped selling the Kii Three, but when I was a Kii retailer (and even now according to the manual), the boundary EQ settings on the Kii Three were specified using a little rotary pot on the back panel or using the Kii Control, with thirteen positions available ranging from 0 to -12. I suspect these were actually specifying the low end roll off in decibels, but that was always a bit vague. 0 was recommended for use in free space, -6 for close proximity to the front wall and -12 for a corner. You simply adjust the setting until it sounds right or measures the way you want it to, depending on your preference.

    One thing that caught my attention immediately with the 8c is that the equivalent settings are specified in centimetres. The only tool required is a tape measure and there is much less trial and error involved. The speakers then calculate the appropriate amount of attenuation to apply based on these distance measurements. In the case of the front wall distance, the 8c also adjusts the delay between the drivers at the front and back of the speaker, to take into account the change in travel time to and from the wall. I do not think that Kii goes quite that far, but they do adjust the relative phase of the sound sent to the drivers at the back and sides to attenuate their off axis output and drive sound forwards. None of this requires measurement with REW, except perhaps to verify that the adjustments are having the intended effect.

    The bit that requires measurement with REW is setting up parametric EQ filters for the purpose of room correction. This has been a feature of the 8c from day one and is now available on the Kii Three. The cardioid output of these designs does not solve the problem of modal resonances causing peaks and dips in the in-room response at low frequencies. Whenever there is a relationship between the wavelength of the frequency being played and the dimensions of the room there will be a resonance. Whenever there is a resonance the level of that frequency will change depending on where you are in the room. The strongest resonances occur when the frequency's wavelength matches the length, width or height of the room, but they also occur between opposing edges and corners (wall/floor to wall/ceiling and wall/wall/floor to wall/wall/ceiling). The net result is a myriad of peaks and dips in the sound which reaches the listener. The parametric EQ features built into the 8c and Kii Three can help with this, most usefully by reducing the level of the peaks. REW provides a precise and reliable way to measure these peaks and generate the filters required to remove any excess, without negatively affecting neighbouring frequencies. REW now also includes integration with the 8c, simplifying the wiring required to capture the measurements and allowing you to send your filters directly to the speakers over the network. This saves a lot of time and effort.
     
  18. Space is the Place

    Space is the Place pfm Member

    Blimey... hes gone active again...what happened with the custom cabs of the other speakers?
     
    Cereal Killer likes this.
  19. Space is the Place

    Space is the Place pfm Member

    3 years it's a record! what happened to the wood cabs?
     
    Cereal Killer likes this.

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