To quote Gandy, "VTA adjustment is actually a neurosis NOT a technical adjustment." They don't believe in VTA having any meaningful effect which is quite laughable - and you can achieve all the rigidity with a height adjustable arm that you can with a Rega arm; remember they are tightened with a nut, not welded on.
Dream deck?
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Iain Docherty
pfm Member
Have you heard a Magne? I absolutely want one given it's such a beautiful object...
Less fuss, more music
pocketkitchen
Registered User
That's not quite the case. Whilst I'm sure your quote is accurate, Roy's position was never that VTA adjustment didn't make a difference at all. It was, however, that it was impossible to get right, given that the height adjustment required varies with the length of the arm, the VTF, the accuracy of cartridge manufacture (cartridges are generally supposed to have an sra of 20deg and many don't) and each record varies in thickness. In other words, too many variables. Michael Fremer has talked at length on this and I quite agree with him that the best solution is an arm that makes it possible to adjust vta on the fly. However, is that remotely possible at Rega's price points? Of course not, without sacrificing something else and the decks that make it possible to do this are very expensive. It would be interesting to know how many forum members here have the ability to adjust vta for every single record and actually do it. My Helius Orion gives me the opportunity, yet I never have.
I read his comments differently:
Rega VTA(Vertical Tracking Angle) Fact Sheet
by Roy Gandy
Quote: "Every problem has a solution. If there is no solution, there is no problem."
The Tonearm: The maximum up/down adjustment on a tonearm is about 0.5 inches (12mm). That being approximately 1 degree VTA adjustment.
[Correction: if you do the maths' a 0.5inch variation on a 9 inch arm is about a 3° variation. You can work this out yourself once you remember that the sin() of an angle is the change in the y coordinate divided by the radius, so 0.5/9 ≈ 0.055 ≈ sin(3°)]
The Cartridge: Each model of cartridge has its own unique design which also determines the stylus VTA. Rega has accurately measured the VTA on at least one hundred different cartridge models. The lowest VTA we have measured was 24° (even though the manufacturer claimed 20°) and the highest was 36°. Most cartridges have a VTA of between 28° to 32°. The VTA of Rega cartridge is approximately 28°.
The Record: The VTA of a record cutting stylus is set to give the best continuous cut of the lacquer. Records are cut with a VTA which varies between 0° and 20°. On an individual record the VTA will vary by 7° or more, depending on the type of cutting head used, the depth of cut, the musical frequency and the lacquer springback. The VTA of the groove on every individual record varies by at least 7° over the record. Every record is cut under 20°.
Futility: We can see that cartridge VTA is normally around 10° higher than the record cutting angle. And the record cutting angle varies by around 7° whilst it is being played.
THEREFORE A MAXIMUM ARM ADJUSTMENT OF ONLY 1° CAN BE SEEN TO BE COMPLETELY FUTILE.To accurately match cartridge VTA to the record cutting angle the back of the arm would need to be well below the record (impossible!) and the cartridge VTA would need to vary at least 7° whilst playing the record!
Normal advice: Most informed advice is to keep the arm tube roughly parallel to the record surface. In fact, the VTA becomes more correct as the rear of the arm is lowered as much as possible, the limit being when the arm or cartridge touches the record.
Worst case: The most extreme situation is a record cutting angle of 0° and a cartridge VTA of 36°. The result is a VTA inaccuracy of 36°.
Question: Can there be any point in playing around with 1° of VTA?
VTA adjustment is actually a neurosis NOT a technical adjustment.
An Alternative: If you alter the playing weight of a normal cartridge by 0.1 of a gram the stylus VTA will alter by around 1.5°.
Another Alternative: If the room temperature increases by 5° F, the stylus rubber suspension will soften and decrease the VTA by 1°.
"but when I alter the VTA I hear a difference"
Of course you do. Any variation or change to the very important joint between the arm and turntable will alter the sound quality. Try simply tightening or loosening the main arm fixing nut, the sound will change. Try tightening or loosening the cartridge fixing nuts, the sound will also change. Almost any change or adjustment to a turntable/arm/cartridge will alter the sound quality if one listens with an acute level of perception.
We hope we have explained to the reader that VTA adjustment is of little or no significance. There are many other simple structural changes that are more important, such as fixing the cartridge rigidly to the arm and fixing the arm tightly to the turntable.
Rega VTA(Vertical Tracking Angle) Fact Sheet
by Roy Gandy
Quote: "Every problem has a solution. If there is no solution, there is no problem."
The Tonearm: The maximum up/down adjustment on a tonearm is about 0.5 inches (12mm). That being approximately 1 degree VTA adjustment.
[Correction: if you do the maths' a 0.5inch variation on a 9 inch arm is about a 3° variation. You can work this out yourself once you remember that the sin() of an angle is the change in the y coordinate divided by the radius, so 0.5/9 ≈ 0.055 ≈ sin(3°)]
The Cartridge: Each model of cartridge has its own unique design which also determines the stylus VTA. Rega has accurately measured the VTA on at least one hundred different cartridge models. The lowest VTA we have measured was 24° (even though the manufacturer claimed 20°) and the highest was 36°. Most cartridges have a VTA of between 28° to 32°. The VTA of Rega cartridge is approximately 28°.
The Record: The VTA of a record cutting stylus is set to give the best continuous cut of the lacquer. Records are cut with a VTA which varies between 0° and 20°. On an individual record the VTA will vary by 7° or more, depending on the type of cutting head used, the depth of cut, the musical frequency and the lacquer springback. The VTA of the groove on every individual record varies by at least 7° over the record. Every record is cut under 20°.
Futility: We can see that cartridge VTA is normally around 10° higher than the record cutting angle. And the record cutting angle varies by around 7° whilst it is being played.
THEREFORE A MAXIMUM ARM ADJUSTMENT OF ONLY 1° CAN BE SEEN TO BE COMPLETELY FUTILE.To accurately match cartridge VTA to the record cutting angle the back of the arm would need to be well below the record (impossible!) and the cartridge VTA would need to vary at least 7° whilst playing the record!
Normal advice: Most informed advice is to keep the arm tube roughly parallel to the record surface. In fact, the VTA becomes more correct as the rear of the arm is lowered as much as possible, the limit being when the arm or cartridge touches the record.
Worst case: The most extreme situation is a record cutting angle of 0° and a cartridge VTA of 36°. The result is a VTA inaccuracy of 36°.
Question: Can there be any point in playing around with 1° of VTA?
VTA adjustment is actually a neurosis NOT a technical adjustment.
An Alternative: If you alter the playing weight of a normal cartridge by 0.1 of a gram the stylus VTA will alter by around 1.5°.
Another Alternative: If the room temperature increases by 5° F, the stylus rubber suspension will soften and decrease the VTA by 1°.
"but when I alter the VTA I hear a difference"
Of course you do. Any variation or change to the very important joint between the arm and turntable will alter the sound quality. Try simply tightening or loosening the main arm fixing nut, the sound will change. Try tightening or loosening the cartridge fixing nuts, the sound will also change. Almost any change or adjustment to a turntable/arm/cartridge will alter the sound quality if one listens with an acute level of perception.
We hope we have explained to the reader that VTA adjustment is of little or no significance. There are many other simple structural changes that are more important, such as fixing the cartridge rigidly to the arm and fixing the arm tightly to the turntable.
I understand where they are coming from but I don't know if I agree with them. I have changed VTA and heard clear sonic differences. Having said that, styluses wear into the groove so it's possible the difference was just down to the stylus not being in its worn in position.
I don't know but I don't have a problem using shims.
daytona600
Registered User
We hope we have explained to the reader that VTA adjustment is of little or no significance. There are many other simple structural changes that are more important, such as fixing the cartridge rigidly to the arm and fixing the arm tightly to the turntable.
typical mr gandy nonsense why make & sell VTA adjusters , no need to clean records on a RCM , Azimuth & VTA adjustment is a myth , Why use 3wire phono leads but 2 etc.
industry standard for decades with the likes of Technics & Project on several million TTs
http://www.rega.co.uk/2mm-spacer-black.html
.
typical mr gandy nonsense why make & sell VTA adjusters , no need to clean records on a RCM , Azimuth & VTA adjustment is a myth , Why use 3wire phono leads but 2 etc.
industry standard for decades with the likes of Technics & Project on several million TTs
http://www.rega.co.uk/2mm-spacer-black.html
.
Tony L
Administrator
I can fully understand the Rega standpoint with the majority of their range which are beautifully designed decks that are pretty much ‘plug and play’, i.e. a Rega turntable with a fixed Rega arm designed for a Rega cartridge. When you have that much control in house it makes sense to simplify in accordance with the underlying low-mass high-rigidity design philosophy. I do however feel the top end decks should maybe provide some adjustment as there is far more likelihood of the end user wanting to fit a third-party cart, though a spacer does address that. I’m not going to knock them as there is such a clear design vision which I’d argue if you didn’t respect you’d go elsewhere. If you consider the turntable, arm and cartridge as three distinct purchases and want to mix and match to your own taste, then a Rega clearly isn’t for you.
When you consider how comprehensively Rega dominate the aftermarket tonearm market, maybe not so much. Yeah, their arms do quite well considering they're built wrong!
I suppose you know that some people put Rega tonearms on Technics turntables? The fools.
pocketkitchen
Registered User
My point is contained perfectly in that sheet, specifically the quote:
"but when I alter the VTA I hear a difference"
Of course you do. Any variation or change to the very important joint between the arm and turntable will alter the sound quality."
He's never said changing the vta makes no difference at all and views it as irrelevant in the context of other things.
I said that he says it has no MEANINGFUL effect. In this case, meaningful means marked improvement - which it definitely does do.
Yes, but he lists things which also effect the sound, tightness of bolts etc, but Rega advise care over these things. So if they matter so should VTA? They can't have it both ways.
Which ones?
All of them.
So all manufacturers encourage torquing down with excess force? Are you serious?
Tony L
Administrator
If Rega are supplying a full system (turntable, arm, cartridge), which they are, then correct VTA can be designed-in. Any problem only occurs if the end-user doesn’t want to use a full Rega system. In fairness to Rega they have supplied a complete vinyl front-end since the Panar 2 & 3 with R200 arm and R100 cartridge, which actually remain my favourite Rega products, real design classics IMO. I’ve always liked to be able to choose my own arm and cart, so it’s not really for me, but you can’t knock it. It is sensible design if you are selling a full record player. I’d argue it was exponentially more logical than say Naim making it impossible to align any cartridge other than a Trioka or Karma correctly with their tonearm unless it coincidentally had exactly the same mount to tip distance!
PS IIRC Rega do have a torque wrench, and it isn’t ‘tight’ at all, I can’t remember the value in Nm, but not enough to damage the paint on the headshell slots. It is also no secret that the Panar 3 sounds *a lot* better with the big mounting nut just finger tight, just enough that the cueing platform doesn’t twist when cueing. The whole ‘Linn tight’ thing was bollocks, a group of idiot dealers and a few magazines who didn’t have the slightest grasp of engineering principle or physics. A lot of good kit was broken by idiots in those days.
gustav_errata
pfm Member
I assume he meant all the screws.