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Domestic Heat Pumps

Our 1905 built house renovated in 2007 with a GSHP with UFH works perfectly well too, even in the depths of winter. Heating bills are not over the top IMO.
 
But the claim made by "experts" was that you can't get water temperatures >50C from heat pumps or retrofit them to existing buildings, laws of physics etc. This is incorrect. Technology is advancing rapidly in this area, and what was true 5 or 10 years ago is not necessarily true any more.

No one was saying you can’t retrofit them to existing buildings at all, in fact they can perform very well on a £ vs kWh cost compared to gas or oil when retrofitted to buildings built before the revision of building insulation regulations 2010, on one provision that is stated time and time again in manufacturers guidelines and is a recognised industry standard, is insulate….insulate……insulate before consideration and ensure you are able to fit underfloor heating, the thermal efficiency of using heat pumps with existing type 22 steel radiators is very poor, aluminium radiators are slightly more efficient but to get the full benefit of such a system you should consider under floor heating laid on top of a well insulated floor.

A close friend recently built his (croation company built/designed, he just paid for it) dream forever modern home kinda similar to a huafhous but cheaper - no less quality though and the house is massive (compared to mine anyway) at 350 square meters compared to my paltry 50 square meters. Super insulated with special triple glazing and polished concrete underfloor heating throughout and he’s using a heat pump system not much larger than what I have fitted yet his heating/electrical costs are a less than 50% of what I spend, despite myself also having a Tesla power wall battery fitted to offset my running costs as it stores cheaper off peak electricity to feed into my daily running costs.

The Tesla battery has saved me a few ££ but the money spent on buying and fitting it would have been better spent by the housing association on replacing the thin air gap 40yr old double glazing and lifting the suspended wooden floors and insulating underneath, also fitting more insulation in the attic, perhaps even fitting solar panels to the roof as the pitch and location of the house is ideal to take advantage of the sun all day but that’s not sexy enough nor as headline grabbing as the housing association proclaiming that “we’re bringing our housing stock up to modern environmental standards by fitting TESLA batteries”. I imagine this was done through the use of environmental grants that ultimately every single householder are subsidising through their electrical bills - the opportunity for grand kickback scams given to “independent companies” are wide open and I’m sure they are being exploited to our detriment.

Quite a rant but it really pisses me off how much an ill thought out improvement for environmental reasons has ended up costing me over 200% more in electricity costs per year and using far more electricity to rub salt into my wounds. Previously I used approx 1500kwh of electricity a year in my tiny 1bed bungalow when I had an open fire/back boiler, last year I used 4600kwh. :eek:
 
No one was saying you can’t retrofit them to existing buildings at all, in fact they can perform very well on a £ vs kWh cost compared to gas or oil when retrofitted to buildings built before the revision of building insulation regulations 2010, on one provision that is stated time and time again in manufacturers guidelines and is a recognised industry standard, is insulate….insulate……insulate before consideration and ensure you are able to fit underfloor heating, the thermal efficiency of using heat pumps with existing type 22 steel radiators is very poor, aluminium radiators are slightly more efficient but to get the full benefit of such a system you should consider under floor heating laid on top of a well insulated floor.

Exactly. The most cost effective thing to do is to insulate, insulate and insulate (loft, underfloor and external walls, including glazing). Then if you still want to fit a heat pump (air source, ground source or ventilation source (another air source but different installation)) then your installation costs and running costs will be a lot less . This is evidenced by @Somafunk and his installation and the Wexford council installation that I have given.
 
Our 1905 built house renovated in 2007 with a GSHP with UFH works perfectly well too, even in the depths of winter. Heating bills are not over the top IMO.
Are you able to quote roughly the heating and space water costs before and after the installation of the GSHP and an idea of the cost of the installation of the GSHP and underfloor heating?

And did you add additional insulation during your renovation?

UFH is great and in my view much better than having radiators or heat delivered through an air based heating system.
 
Good Evening All,

I am not an engineering person but I am a person who has had a very strong interest in matters 'green' for some time and who lives in a house that has had solar PV since 2008, UFH replacing radiators since 2009, a GSHP and solar hot water since 2016, battery storage since 2019 and an EV since 2018 I feel I have a reasonable experience in this area.

We live in an 1859 built stone farmhouse and the GSHP works fine, generally speaking the maximum water temperature out to the the combination UFH/ radiators is 42°C with an outside temperature down to -10°C. Hot water can be heated to 58°C.

The property has an EPC rating 'A' which is a shed load better than most of the nearby properties (mostly 'D' according to recent sales particulars).

The other side of the coin is that this hasn't been achieved at zero cost - BUT it is possible.

Regards

Richard
Hi Richard,

I have thought (investigating a a range of different approaches and have installed a heat recovery and ventilation system as part of my house experiment) about doing what you have done for many years.

I have primarily focused on improving the insulation in my house first. And then a desire to build my own house took over and I decided to keep the money that I would have invested in these systems for the next house.

Certainly sounds like you have done a really good job with your house. To get to an A energy rating in an old house is a really good achievement.

Ian
 
Certainly sounds like you have done a really good job with your house. To get to an A energy rating in an old house is a really good achievement.

That is impressive. The place I'm buying is a D, verging on a C, and I thought that wasn't too bad for an older house.
 
Are you able to quote roughly the heating and space water costs before and after the installation of the GSHP and an idea of the cost of the installation of the GSHP and underfloor heating?

And did you add additional insulation during your renovation?

UFH is great and in my view much better than having radiators or heat delivered through an air based heating system.

no, we bought it post renovation. I do know the renovation was very expensive though (swiss prices!)
 
no, we bought it post renovation. I do know the renovation was very expensive though (swiss prices!)
I am very much aware of Swiss prices (and the high quality of the work) having lived there for 3 1/2 years.

The flat that I rented (25 mins by train into Zurich) was built to Minergie standard (similar to passive house standard that is used across Europe for those not familiar the Swiss system). Some flats of the same type (2 bed) were for sale on our development for around £510k. I paid around £1.8k rent each month (including car parking and site expenses).

This was by far the best building that I have lived in. In winter the underfloor heating and heat recovery system kept the flat at a constant temperature (had some control over the bathroom to keep it a bit warmer). In summer when it was very hot outside you would be hit by a wall of cool air when you entered the flat as it was so well insulated and proteced from the sun through the large balcony outside for the floor above.

So I would be very surprised if your retrofit did not include improving the insulation standards etc to way beyond the UK building standards at that time and possibly even the current UK standards.

roughly where do you live in Switzerand (I used to live in Hinwil, 15 mins walk from the Sauber F1 factory).
 
Somafunk, it does sound as if the people who worked out your setup didn't do a very good job, nor did they take into account your particular circumstances: as you have an essentially free source of wood to burn, moving from a wood/electricity mix to 100% electricity was never going to be cost effective. Comparing your electricity costs before and after just shows how they replaced one source of (free) heating with another (££££). Not too clever.
 
well insulated and proteced from the sun through the large balcony outside for the floor above.
I've been thinking about such things lately. Depending on the orientation of the building and the latitude I'm sure builders could calculate the angles needed to let the winter sun come in, but not the sun in the height of summer. That would give you passive heating and cooling at the times you need it.

This could be done with a balcony or a larger floor above.

Surely won't be perfect all the time but still a worthwhile opportunity I reckon.
 
I figure the housing association did the maths for all the properties fitted with the systems and seeing as all my floors would have to be lifted to fit insulation, new double glazing, insulate outer walls, insulate attic and new front/rear doors not to mention I would have to move out for such work to be done then I guess it was it easier/cheaper to fit the air source heat pumps and associated tanks/pipe work then spend the rest on publishing their environmental achievements whilst engaging in a circle jerk around the boardroom table.

Daft really seeing as I have as much seasoned wood as I want, a good stove with back boiler feeding underfloor heating would have been ideal.

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Thanks for your input Anushree. They don’t help cut your electricity costs if your current heating is gas, which is also cheaper than electricity.
 


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