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Do paper speaker cones sound less neutral?

Quote "Do paper speaker cones sound less neutral?"

I don't know if they sound less neutral, but to my ears they usually sound more natural than all the plastic coned speakers I've heard. Anything with electric guitars losses bite and sounds too soft / smooth with plastic. They can sound lovely with vocals though.

A speaker is supposed to only reproduce what it's fed, without adding or taking anything away, but cone materials definitely have their own sound. Paper mixed with carbon fibre sounds even more accurate to my ears, but often has a peak before roll-off that has potential to sound nasty.
 
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This is what y'all need. A bit of doping.

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I think paper cones are still by far the most natural sounding of all types we see in speakers. When it comes to bass and midrange anyway. Others may have their advantages but overall I don't you can go wrong with paper. Tweeters though I still think metal are the king, although they have to be implemented well.
 
Anything with electric guitars losses bite and sounds too soft / smooth with plastic.

That's a bold statement! :eek: There's no doubt that some speakers using plastic cones can sound soft in the mids. But all of them?

Here's a list of some speakers using plastic cones, of one kind or another:
- all the classic BBC speakers from the LS3/5a to the LS5/8 and everything in between
- all the classic KEF Reference speakers
- all the speakers by BBC influenced companies including Spendor and Harbeth, right up to and including the present day
- all the classic Linn speakers including the Kan, Sara and Isobarik
- classic Sonus Faber speakers including the Guarneri and the Extrema
- Siegfried Linkwitz's final Linkwitz Lab designs including the LX521

That's just some that come to mind. Admittedly, there's been backlash against plastic cones for a long time now. They are out of fashion, in many circles, especially where low-powered amps and high efficiency speakers are embraced. Let's face it: many of the speakers I've listed above (though not all) date from the last century.

But I think that plastic cones still have their merits. Otherwise they wouldn't be at the heart of successful speakers like Harbeths, and they wouldn't still be produced by so many highly respected makers of drive units. Cone material is important, but the quality of the end result depends not just on the cone material but on how it is used. Plastic cones can make great speakers, including some that can shred with the best.
 
That's a bold statement! :eek: There's no doubt that some speakers using plastic cones can sound soft in the mids. But all of them?

Obviously I haven't heard all of them, but my first experience was when I was 17 years old and fitted some Pioneer, paper, full-range speakers (whizzer cones) to the front doors of my first car (Datsun Cherry). After a while I decided to upgrade to the next level on the Pioneer ladder, and bought some coaxial 2-ways with plastic coned midbass speaker. I couldn't work out why the more expensive speakers sounded soft, and worse than the cheaper ones (although a bit more detailed). In the end I fitted them in the back doors.

Next experience was living with some budget (£180) Kef Coda 8 paper coned speakers for a few years. Whilst owning these speakers I'd been buying all the latest hifi magazines, and reading all the reviews. Dynaudio audience 50se (plastic coned speakers) had been winning awards left, right and centre in every magazine. I went to a couple of local hifi shops to ask their opinions and was told in two different shops that for the money (around £500 or £600) nothing came close, and nothing else was worth listening to... I bought some, but although they seemed more detailed, over the coming weeks I found myself listening to less music. One day I plugged the old Kefs back in and the music came back to life.

A few years later I bought some Tannoy System 10 DMT studio monitors (plastic cones). They were awesome at producing sound at low volumes, had vocals were to die for, and also went loud as hell without distortion. Play anything with electric guitars (heavy metal type music), and it was a bit boring.

I also listened to some newer Kefs a while after owning my Coda 8s for a while, but I can't remember the model (mid 90's coax floorstander that got great reviews). They had white plastic cones and were supposed to be the latest and greatest thing, but again sounded soft and dull.

One day I put all these experiences together and realised they all had one thing in common (plastic cones). I don't care if people believe me or not, but It's highly unlikely I will ever buy plastic coned speakers again.

Here's a quote from speaker designer Paul Carmody "
Peerless 830657
For the mid, I knew I wanted a paper cone, because they tend to be best at reproducing electric guitars. (Why is this so? Less odd-order harmonic distortion? Smoother Frequency Response? I don't honestly know why paper cones make more realistic-sounding guitars, but my best guess is that they tend to have cone breakup that is similar to that of a guitar speaker.) I also knew I wanted a "large" mid, at least 6" in diameter--but, it had to have a fairly smooth Frequency Response so that I could cross to a tweeter at 2000 Hz or higher without problems. For less than $50, pickins were slim. I took a gamble on a Peerless 830657 6.5" midwoofer from their SDS series; and it turned out better than I expected."
 
There is no requirement for audiophiles to prefer neutral high fidelity speakers over those with attractive sound effects. It is a hobby. Conflict is only likely to arise if LS3/5A enthusiasts insist they are high fidelity/high technical performance speakers rather than good audiophile ones.

The reality is that they are speakers which were designed by the BBC to act as 'near field studio monitors', with... I believe.. particular attention the reproduction of the human voice. They were designed to be used in cramped studios, in order to let broadcasters hear what was 'going out'.. as it were. They are not full range, they do not have big power handling and they are not very sensitive.. but in the right setting.. they are excellent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LS3/5A#Name
 
I think paper cones are still by far the most natural sounding of all types we see in speakers.

I agree. Paper cones are nice. Plastic ones can be too, different strengths. Not heard a metal dome midrange/bass driver I liked. Most are unpleasant, some are awful.
 
Not heard a metal dome midrange/bass driver I liked. Most are unpleasant, some are awful.
The beryllium dome mid on the Yamaha NS-1000M is pretty special, and not at all unpleasant sounding, even if it's unpleasant for its toxicity. The mesh grill keeps everyone safe.
 
I agree. Paper cones are nice. Plastic ones can be too, different strengths. Not heard a metal dome midrange/bass driver I liked. Most are unpleasant, some are awful.

I've had some metal cones I didn't like. But the speakers I'm using at the moment (a part DIY creation) use all aluminium cones - Scanspeak woofers and Bandor wide-range units. I'd defy anyone to find them unpleasant (apart from their appearance). See below: :oops:

P5031776 by grilled snapper, on Flickr
 
Each to their own. A good studio monitor maybe but I wouldn't want them in my living room.
In fairness, they are ruthlessly revealing. I quite like how they look and sound in my room, and I'm super fussy about loudspeakers. Goes well with black Mana too.
 
I adore lots of paper coned speakers, although I have a big gap in my education regarding the large classic approach (JBL, Tannoy etc.) that Tony mentions.

I think if the designer knows what he or she is doing then cone materials will become a secondary matter. Look at the old Kef reference series with plastic cones, all the greats with their paper cones, and other speakers with metal. I spoke last year with a designer who basically said what h.g. is saying, that each material has properties that you can build to. If the designer has done well, then the material won't really matter or betray itself in the finished product.

I auditioned some Revel F-208 shortly afterwards on the strength of his advice, never having liked metal coned speakers before. I have to say they are the best speakers I have ever heard, and I can't identify anything in the sound that speaks to driver cone material. They can do everything, and better then I've heard before, but I think that's down to the whole speaker system.

I get the impression that paper may be easier to work with though. My workshop speakers - JPW Sonatas - sound far better than they have any right to, with their paper mid-woofer.
 
And there is the Jordan Watts type of speaker cone to consider as well....

Do paper speaker cones sound less neutral?

Well - the search for new and improved speaker cone materials has been ongoing for decades - and still goes on.
I don't think you can claim that 'paper' automatically has anything wrong - the mere point that it is very much still here and in use, shows that.
 
Implementation is everything, different materials perform differently depending on design requirements.

As regards sought after speakers, it's demographic driven, there's probably no 20 year olds buying western electric theatre speakers and few if any 70 year olds dreaming of Spotify and airpods.
 
I've had some metal cones I didn't like. But the speakers I'm using at the moment (a part DIY creation) use all aluminium cones - Scanspeak woofers and Bandor wide-range units. I'd defy anyone to find them unpleasant (apart from their appearance). See below: :oops:

P5031776 by grilled snapper, on Flickr

I'm sure they sound lovely and I wish I had the time, patience etc.. to build something.

Now.. just a coat of Dulux.. or maybe some nice Fablon.... ;)
 
I think a lot of this is transference. Metal sounds metalic, paper is papery.
Paper sounds like paper because it is paper; metal sounds metallic for the same reason. Make them into speaker cones and that characteristic sound doesn't magically disappear, it simply overlays the output of the cone to some degree. Whether it is enough to add a coloration probably depends on the implementation.
 


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