Do amplifiers really sound the same?

[speedboy]

No they don't all sound the same. There is no such thing as a "straight wire with gain" (much as I love Peter Walker).

 

[Darth Vader]

That's crazy, although I suppose it's nice to know your amplifiers will drive your speakers to mechanical overload without clipping!

My last car was a 6L V12 jobbie and could cruise at 150mph. That didn't mean that I drove like a mad man but the drive was so relaxed and smooth. The car didn't see a hill as everything was so effortless and the acceleration with kick down was like taking off in a rocket (almost). On automatic cruise control the speed was rock solid either going up or down a hill the engine was in complete control.

I have used this analogy before but the engine powering the car is similar to the amplifier driving the speakers.

Cheers,

DV

 

[timeout]

amplifier sound the same? YES but for certain music like orchestra, Jazz, instrument and sometimes vocal they sound diff.

The final nail would be the Recording. a good recording like XRCD, SACD, K2HD, original pressing really make or break a system

Finally the amplifier is not a standalone equipment. there is no way we can quantify/review a amplifier; unless with the same source, speaker, material / software, room and people.

basically it is a useless to discuss this question...



tonight my fren who ain't an audiophile or into Hifi came to my house with his 90's CD, and it sound like sh it and concluded that it is the material that break it. it was sh it until i played some XRCD or better recording

 

[hecd2]

I'm sure the data is available if you care to search but the ones I have to hand;

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/5234a.pdf

http://www.audiocore.co.uk/products-dp226.html

http://www.bssaudio.com/discont_productpg.php?product_id=5

Tannoy

I believe there are/were measurable differences. My point is the threshold(these all have very good numbers) and an opinion that it is how these parameters combine that can account for the differences we hear.

Yeah, my question was about how the individual ones measured as opposed to what the specs are. I suspect crossovers are particularly susceptible to variations in performance from unit to unit since the rolloff slope, frequency and phase is particularly sensitive to the actual component values, on which there will be a tolerance. The specs of many loudspeakers are similar or identical but they can sound very different.

My position is that there aren't audible differences without there being measurable differences in performance.

 

[Teddy Ray]

the evidence keeps piling up and piling up...

http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths/1425


but the golden ears protest in the face of *fact*.

it is quite funny.

it is like someone standing in the water while saying it isn't wet.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Can I just digress slightly in the opposite direction?

Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that we have a pair of amplifiers on which there is general agreement that they sound different. We may then assume and agree that they will measure differently, too.

To suggest a difference: one amplifier is more exciting and involving than the other. The music sounds more dynamic, the musicians sound more skilled and committed to the music, their sense of timing and pitch is more obvious and 'right'. Everything is just much more enjoyable and fun to listen to.

Assuming that the nominal power output is the same for both, what other parameters could be 'in-play' here, and what sort of difference in the values of those parameters would be necessary, or indeed audible?

 

[avole]

Paranormal parameters is my best guess.

 

[Darth Vader]

Sue my post from 10 days ago. Take a look at the links.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If we make the assumption that the best sound comes from a speaker that is matched to the room then it comes down to the way different amplifiers react to different speaker loads.

This link is a rather light look at how speakers can stress amplifiers and thus make them sound different. If its too technical just take a look at one or two graphs and have a think about it.
http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/SCAMP/scamp.html

This second link has some famous enginers names attached to it and is a serious look into how different music with different but real speakers can stress amplifiers.

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/707heavy/index.html

So an amplifier under heavy stress ain't gonna sound nice but the same amp that is not stressed may sound a lot better and somewhat different.

OK I know some peeps can't be bothered to read links and expect to see the same old circular arguments some of which are rather pointless but at least I have tried. I guess once a teacher always a .........

Cheers and enjoy.

DV
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[john dolan]

Volume pots selector switches capacitors and resistors sound difference even though the same values.

A Alps blue and a Noble and a Dact sound very different with the noble having a warmer fuller darker sound to the Alps and the dact sounds clearer and brighter like a Arcam amp v a cyrus.

If you cant hear this you have no resolution in your ears or your system.

 

[avole]

You've done blind testing then, John?

I'm thinking of repairing the 10€ Pioneer and was mulling over whether to use improved components.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

My question remains, assuming we have a consensus between objectivists(TM) and subjectivists(TM) that amplifier A and amplifier B sound different, and there are measurements which back this up:

what measured parameters, and by how much would they need to be different?

 

[avole]

My question remains, assuming we have a consensus between objectivists(TM) and subjectivists(TM) that amplifier A and amplifier B sound different, and there are measurements which back this up:

what measured parameters, and by how much would they need to be different?

What about recidivists?

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Yeah, OK, so we've established that avole doesn't know, but what about any of the other techy types out there?

 

[avole]

Tweeter, I'm re-tuning my TV, it's taken hours, so much so I've missed the reason why I was doing it in the first place, which was to watch the Wimbledon final.

I gather from the tenor of your remark you're having a shit day, too. Lighten up.

 

[john & Jake]

Volume pots selector switches capacitors and resistors sound difference even though the same values.

A Alps blue and a Noble and a Dact sound very different with the noble having a warmer fuller darker sound to the Alps and the dact sounds clearer and brighter like a Arcam amp v a cyrus.

If you cant hear this you have no resolution in your ears or your system.

Hi just a theory, but most amp designs are pretty competent and have the ability to meausure the same. So it must be down to the quality of the components used.
If anyone doubts this I'm sure that regular contributors to the DIY section of Pink may enlighten us all.
Component swapping is the most fruitful of all DIY audio pastimes.
It may sound like heresy but some resistors are thought to sound better one way round also non polarised caps.

 

[mudlark]

Can I just digress slightly in the opposite direction?

Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that we have a pair of amplifiers on which there is general agreement that they sound different. We may then assume and agree that they will measure differently, too.

To suggest a difference: one amplifier is more exciting and involving than the other. The music sounds more dynamic, the musicians sound more skilled and committed to the music, their sense of timing and pitch is more obvious and 'right'. Everything is just much more enjoyable and fun to listen to.

Assuming that the nominal power output is the same for both, what other parameters could be 'in-play' here, and what sort of difference in the values of those parameters would be necessary, or indeed audible?

the first paragraph isn't correct. Any subsequent conclusions using your assumption will not be valid.

You do not know whether the measurements will detect the sound difference. even if you use the right measurements, you still cannot logically make the conclusion.

 

[onlyconnect]

what other parameters could be 'in-play' here, and what sort of difference in the values of those parameters would be necessary, or indeed audible?

One could be faulty?

Tim

 

[john dolan]

Hi just a theory, but most amp designs are pretty competent and have the ability to meausure the same. So it must be down to the quality of the components used.
If anyone doubts this I'm sure that regular contributors to the DIY section of Pink may enlighten us all.
Component swapping is the most fruitful of all DIY audio pastimes.
It may sound like heresy but some resistors are thought to sound better one way round also non polarised caps.

Over the last few weeks ive been swapping between the carbon shunt resistors and Charcrofts and have now changed them 6 times to fully get them which i prefer in my Seiden Stepped Attenuator.

The Charcrofts are more open and sweeter and very good image but they are slightly bright either that or the carbon resistors are slightly warmer and i prefer the warmer balance in my system even though i can hear the Charcrofts are better the slight brightness is not to my tastes.

The carbon and charcrofts all measure the same.

 

[Maxbertola]

In that case, I suggest an amp with subtitles.

I stumbled into this post by chance. I find this - and vote this - the best reply ever posted in this or any forum.
I won't ever read a more witty one, so I can now, serenely, leave PFM forever.

Hats off!

Max

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Tweeter, I'm re-tuning my TV, it's taken hours, so much so I've missed the reason why I was doing it in the first place, which was to watch the Wimbledon final.

I gather from the tenor of your remark you're having a shit day, too. Lighten up.

No, not really, though I'd have liked Murray to win. His losere's interview was gracious though, saw him in a bit of a new light.

My point, if anybody decides to take it up, is that lots of people on here advocate measurement, but actually correlating those measurements to what we hear isn't something that anybody on here has yet ventured to try.

So, how can these advocates of measurement uber alles support their POV, unless they can be sure the measurement correlates to musically relevant criteria?

Assuming they can, I'm interested to know what might be the normally accepted values and the minimum increments which might be considered relevant or audible.

Relying on numbers, without being to explain why they are relevant, is no more valid that relying on purely subjective opinions and totally disregarding the numbers.