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Discontinued audio-technica models that accept current VMN series styli

BTW, I just stumbled upon this under the 'Features' section of the AT-VM95 models on audio-technica.com/en-gb, no mention of stylus cross compatibility on the AT-XP series side at all. I first read of this in the 2018/19 phono cartridges catalogue.

AT-VM9E Series compatibility with the AT-XP Series DJ Cartridges
  • The electromagnetic engine-body of XP-Series, is fully compatible with all replacement styli of VM95 Series and will deliver more output voltage than VM95 Series cartridge. So providing improved compatibility with phono inputs of Professional DJ Mixers.
  • VM95 Series electromagnetic engine-body is also compatible with the three replacement styli of the DJ cartridge AT-XP Series, nevertheless, the electromagnetic engine-body of XP-Series, will deliver more output voltage than VM95 Series cartridge in order to provide better compatibility with phono inputs of Professional DJ Mixers.
  • Note that typical tracking force when using XP Series styli is three grams as opposed to two grams for VM95 Series styli.
  • The suspension design and compliance of XP-Series styli have been optimized for intensive DJ’ing, including possible manual cueing and back-cueing.
  • The VM95 Series suspension design and compliances of VM95 Series have been designed for optimum audiophile reproduction.
ATN-XP7
ATN-XP5
ATN-XP3​
 
Speaking of the 2018/19 catalogue, with the introduction of the XP series came this bit of info...

"Due to the VM architecture, the XP series DJ cartridges are not suitable for scratch or turntablist applications. Nevertheless unlike most of Hi-fi cartridges they allow manual cueing and back-cueing."​
 
Craig B said:
"Due to the VM architecture, the XP series DJ cartridges are not suitable for scratch or turntablist applications. Nevertheless unlike most of Hi-fi cartridges they allow manual cueing and back-cueing."
Click to expand...

Bizarre, I thought that was the point of the XP series - To be a able to back cue ? Apart from having a stronger cantilever and higher output (which is not an issue here for me) maybe there is not so much benefit to using them beyond the standard VM range (or a standard Dj cart like Ortofon concorde for example ?)

Craig B said:
VM95 Series electromagnetic engine-body is also compatible with the three replacement styli of the DJ cartridge AT-XP Series, nevertheless, the electromagnetic engine-body of XP-Series, will deliver more output voltage than VM95 Series cartridge in order to provide better compatibility with phono inputs of Professional DJ Mixers.
Click to expand...

This is what i originally read, that the XP body is compatible with the VM95 series styli, but didn't see anything about the other way around. I would imagine that knowing AT they probably DO work the other way round, just no mention of it here.

Thanks for your digging here Craig.
 
Simon s said:
Bizarre, I thought that was the point of the XP series - To be a able to back cue ? Apart from having a stronger cantilever and higher output (which is not an issue here for me) maybe there is not so much benefit to using them beyond the standard VM range (or a standard Dj cart like Ortofon concorde for example ?)
Click to expand...
WRT the XP series, A-T did say "Nevertheless unlike most of Hi-fi cartridges they allow manual cueing and back-cueing" [emphasis added], just not scratch or turntablist applications, the latter due to the VM architecture, which I take it to mean that there is risk of driving the V magnets into the magnetic poles. Had they thought things through a bit more (and were willing to throw a lot more money into this), they may have been better off reintroducing one of their early none VM models in a heavier duty format. I plan on doing a pfm feature on these none VMs, as well as an exposè dealing with the elusive A-T IM designs, soon.
Simon s said:
This is what i originally read, that the XP body is compatible with the VM95 series styli, but didn't see anything about the other way around. I would imagine that knowing AT they probably DO work the other way round, just no mention of it here.
Click to expand...
Read the first two bulleted points in post #21 (above) again. They are saying that the styli work both ways round, i.e. ATN-XP styli on VM95 series body and VMN95 styli on XP series body.
Simon s said:
Thanks for your digging here Craig.
Click to expand...
No worries, Simon. I'm really into record replay archaeology. When on a dig, I excavate in an anti-clockwise spiral pattern, no back digging. :) (think about it)
 
Craig B said:
No worries, Simon. I'm really into record replay archaeology. When on a dig, I excavate in an anti-clockwise spiral pattern, no back digging. :) (think about it)
Click to expand...

Ha ha . yes of course.

Craig B said:
Read the first two bulleted points in post #21 (above) again. They are saying that the styli work both ways round, i.e. ATN-XP styli on VM95 series body and VMN95 styli on XP series body.
Click to expand...

Yes as i mentioned above i realised this once i reread the whole text, apologies ! (I blame the internet for fracturing my attention span into 10 things at once !).

In any case thats good news then. I may just buy a cheap conical VM95C and the XP3 and switch around to see how the bodies compare when switching styli.
 
Craig B said:
Had they thought things through a bit more (and were willing to throw a lot more money into this), they may have been better off reintroducing one of their early none VM models in a heavier duty format. I plan on doing a pfm feature on these none VMs, as well as an exposè dealing with the elusive A-T IM designs, soon.
Click to expand...
Yes, In this sense (and probably only in this sense) i do think that Audio Technica are behind Ortofon when it comes to cartridges and stylus for DJ use. The Concorde range are far superior. In a Dj context the stylus profile is of less importance than it would be for audiophile listening but what is important is the cantilever and its ability to tolerate backcueuing, as well as having a higher output. Why AT didn't really want to invest in this area as much as Ortofon is odd as they excel in pretty much every other area.
 
Simon s said:
Yes, In this sense (and probably only in this sense) i do think that Audio Technica are behind Ortofon when it comes to cartridges and stylus for DJ use. The Concorde range are far superior. In a Dj context the stylus profile is of less importance than it would be for audiophile listening but what is important is the cantilever and its ability to tolerate backcueuing, as well as having a higher output. Why AT didn't really want to invest in this area as much as Ortofon is odd as they excel in pretty much every other area.
Click to expand...
Well, I suppose that these are a tip-toe in the DJ water, and they do make clear their intention of providing hi-fi/audiophile sound quality combined with basic DJ usage. It is funny how they include 'possible manual cueing' as a feature, though. I do agree that these are unlikely to sell well against the seemingly endless choices from Ortofon. I can see AT-XP3 as being a great choice for a kid's record deck, now that both AT3600L and AT91 are gone, though. That is, if only XP3 were the same price as VM95C, rather than at £49.99 (£6.99 higher than VM95E).

WRT your previous post, I'd actually like to try the opposite of an XP body with VMN95 stylus; this, for the simple reason that with coil inductance vs. loading capacitance, swinging high on one side vs. low on the other makes for interesting results. Plus, I do like my cartridges nice and tight with stainless hex hardware. Although A-T don't mention it much, these VM95 and XP upper bodies/mounting plates are of "highly-rigid polyphenylene sulfide (PPS)/glass fibre", same material as used in the current VM line. Based upon my old experiments with swapping bodies and styli between Linn K5, K9 and K18, I preferred the sound of the tough plastic mount of K5 over the metal of K5/K18. I still occasionally run a K5 with K9 stylus on a Systemdek IIX here. K7 is an inbred mutt, for sure, but I love that little bastard and will be quite saddened when his sole fang finally wears away to nothing. Perhaps a new denture in the form of VM95-something?

Getting back to the straight up VM95 series cartridges, IMV, at the asking price, 95C offers the absolute most build/tech for the money of any cartridge, period. That they cost $34 in the US is astounding. If we were to use reverse inflation calculation back to the days of AT70/AT93/AT105 (to name but three highly popular AT conicals), these would be sitting loose in a bowel like complimentary mints down the local dealers. That one can subsequently upgrade such to a nude square shank ML or Shibata tip is somewhat mind blowing. It's as though A-T have taken a lesson from the illegal drugs trade's 'The First One Is Free' playbook! :)

VM_Construction_Illustration_02-1000x1000.png
 
Thanks to the OP for the information. It was proving difficult to work what stylus to fit to my AT440MLa cartridge. I’ll be looking for a VMN40ML in the not too distant future.
 
julifriend said:
After a bit of searching I found this page —> https://contact.audio-technica.eu/e...s-can-i-use-to-replace-my-discontinued-model- which includes many other AT cartridges and the current recommended replacement stylus.
Click to expand...
audio-technica appear to have missed the following:
  • AT90 (AT91, Choose ATN91R for aluminium cantilever)
  • AT94E (AT91 - Makes cartridge conical, Choose ATN91R for aluminium cantilever)
  • AT405 OCC (AT91R)
  • AT407E OCC (AT91R, Makes cartridge conical)
  • ATP-4 (VMN20EB, Makes cartridge elliptical, Makes cartridge none 'Professional')
  • ATP-5 (VMN20EB, Makes cartridge none 'Professional')
  • ATP-6 (VMN30EN, Makes cartridge none 'Professional')
 
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Craig B said:
WRT your previous post, I'd actually like to try the opposite of an XP body with VMN95 stylus; this, for the simple reason that with coil inductance vs. loading capacitance, swinging high on one side vs. low on the other makes for interesting results.
Click to expand...
Yes this is on my list now although i must admit that i don't really know the technicalities of what Coil Inductance is and how this would translate audibly, but switching out various styli with different bodies XP range to VM95 and vice veras would be worthwhile doing, esp when pitching this against the higher priced 500 series for example.

Craig B said:
Getting back to the straight up VM95 series cartridges, IMV, at the asking price, 95C offers the absolute most build/tech for the money of any cartridge, period. That they cost $34 in the US is astounding. If we were to use reverse inflation calculation back to the days of AT70/AT93/AT105 (to name but three highly popular AT conicals), these would be sitting loose in a bowel like complimentary mints down the local dealers. That one can subsequently upgrade such to a nude square shank ML or Shibata tip is somewhat mind blowing. It's as though A-T have taken a lesson from the illegal drugs trade's 'The First One Is Free' playbook! :)
Click to expand...

Ha ha yes totally agree. I don't know how they can offer the VM95C or the E for that matter at such an incredible price to performance ratio but i guess this is one of the appealing things about Audio Technica in comparison to most other hifi companies, is the accessibility to some serious quality products at such a good price, very rare in this world (let alone hifi world) Even the ART 9 is small money compared to the competition.
 
VMN40ML received and fitted! As it turns out I had to remove the cartridge anyway and this new stylus needed so much force to 'clip' in that I felt more comfortable doing it in a way that I could actually see what was going on. So...like may things in this hobby, a simple tasks becomes an hour's ordeal lol But done, and I'm really happy with the choice. Thanks for the advice! :)
 
@Tony L has kindly started a Reference area thread containing the first post from here. I'll be updating this to include the helpful link posted by @julifriend above, as well as the A-T models that have been missed, as and when I recall them.

Please feel free to contribute any relevant omissions/updates here and I'll include them over there.

Craig
 
DrBallMD said:
At the start of this week instead of trading in my well used and liked Clearaudio Performer with its nude elliptical stylus, I bought an at95ml and chopped the excess plastic off, and it snapped into the body nicely.
Really enjoying the ML profile and it's benefits so far.
I am not sure if there is any difference in the bit that matter between the 95ML and N40ML? Is it just fittings or is there something to be gained (next time!) in my application?
It really is much better if you have steadyish hands to renew a great cart, shame they are money grabbing at times at clearaudio as I like a lot of their products.
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I do have experience with glueing in styli on AT93/95E, so I do find the idea of cutting away all but the core bits interesting. Also, in keeping with the theme of this thread, this could potentially allow some A-T models to receive a replacement or upgrade where none exists otherwise. On the downside, as you rightly point out, this wouldn't be a job for everyone.

As to potential gains to be had with 'shaved' VMN40ML vs. VMN95ML on VM95 body (assuming a fit can be made) a lot of the specification differences are electrical, with the VM series generator having coil pairs per channel that are physically handed L vs. R with mu-metal screening between (usually coil pairs are arranged diagonally). Assuming accurate tip alignment, this and A-T's para-toroidal coils are what gives these models channel separation values approaching 30dB combined with 1dB output channel balance.

On the mechanical side, discounting potential diamond quality/polish/grain orientation etc. differences (there is also the tapered alloy cantilever of the dearer model to consider), the cantilever suspension contributes the compliance, a subject where with A-T (and Japanese cartridge makers in general) static vs. dynamic values seem completely add odds between the models. The reason for this has always been the Japan Inc. practice of quoting dynamic compliance with reference to 100Hz (vs. ref. 10Hz elsewhere). Without transform to a 10Hz reference, the at 100Hz reference is all but useless wrt helping decide how a given arm/cartridge might behave together. As case in point, AT-VM540ML is quoted as having a static compliance of 40 x 10-6cm/dyne with a dynamic compliance of 10 x 10-6cm/dyne (ref 100Hz). Contrast this with AT-VM95ML having static at 20 x 10–6cm/dyne and the same 10 x 10-6cm/dyne (ref 100Hz) dynamic compliance.

I suspect that the bottom line here is that one would end up with something more akin to VM95ML than VM540ML.
 
@Simon s,

I meant to add that the XP models aren't actually audio-technica's first 'P' for 'Professional' series. Way back in the late 1970s they introduced the ATP series with the following opening paragraph from the flyer.

Audio-Technica ATP Series cartridges were developed to meet the specific needs of professional record playing. Careful study of the problems of radio and TV studios, portable and fixed disco installations, theatres, libraries, and similar applications was the fist step in creation of this new series.
​
These pre-dated A-T's use of carbon loaded ABS cantilevers, therefore, all three models; ATP-1, ATP-2 and ATP-3 employed stout tapered alloy tubes, as well the patented Dual Magnet generator.

Up until very recently, ATP-N2 replacement styli (0.4 x 0.7 bonded elliptical, 3-5g VTF) were still in production, representing an upgrade for the 0.6mil spherical ATP-1, and a slight downgrade for the 0.3 x 0.7mil nude elliptical ATP-3 (2-3g VTF).

What some on here may find interesting about this series is that, but for having an altered moulded top with enclosed mounting lugs, the metal body/generator of the first ATP series (yes, there was a second series) is the same as that of the highly popular AT-105, AT-110E, and AT-115E models.

Craig

P.S. There was also a AT400 based professional series that replaced ATP-1, ATP-2, and ATP-3, consisting of models ATP-4, ATP-5, and ATP-6.

There's that stout tapered tube with corresponding large socket receiver/magnet yoke again:
Audio-Technica-ATP-N5-stylus-side_459x540.jpg
 
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