Dedicated Mains

[Cappuccino]

Or mount the equipment in the CU and have long speaker cables

Wouldn’t be able to control the volume

 

[Mike Reed]

Mike, i think most non sparks, I’m sure you’ll be surprised to know i fall into this bracket , refer to single connections as spurs although appreciate it is technically the wrong term.

I'm not an electrician, and even if I were, I'd be too old and out of touch nowadays anyway. It's just, with quite a lot of collaboration from like-minded and electrically savvy Naim owners (incl. Roy Riches) that I installed a multi radial supply, avoiding theoretically deleterious impedance increasing connections, in the accepted manner of 15 odd years ago, having installed similar dedicated supplies in previous houses but without modern house wiring. I had this house completely rewired when I moved in 20 years ago.

I don't know your Neotech cable or its capacity etc; T & E was good enough for me and Bobby McGee . As far as I can see, and this has been confirmed as feasible if frowned upon by knowledgeable fishies in the past, the MCB in the consumer unit is the fuse, and others don't need to be added as long as amperage capacities coordinate as the case fuse should protect the kit. Hence, hard-wiring, as I think you are referring to and which I have, theoretically should be fine UNLESS reg's have changed to obviate this approach. After all, fuse boxes were metal, the C.U.s came in plastic (as mine) but changed back to metal a couple or so years ago, so I've no idea of current dos and don'ts as times and reg's they are a changin' all the time, it seems.

As you'll need a registered sparks to connect everything (as I did), why not contact one with your proposition (even though they'll think you're daft), but there are practising sparks here who'll likely advise. The graphic posted previously was indeed the standard accepted way back then, though it shows sockets, not hard-wiring. If you have TT earthing in your abode, you could add a/some extra earth spikes for theoretically reduced impedance but that's another can of worms best avoided, at least pro tem.

It would make more sense to do away with the iec plug & socket and have a length of your preferred Neotech hard wired to the equipment with a 15 a round pin plug on the end.

Well, yes; fewer connections but requiring some confidence and skill in altering an expensive piece of kit? The 15 amp. round pins were a fad in the eighties, but to the best of my memory were fuse-less. Better contact area, sure, but still a socket and plug.

Or mount the equipment in the CU and have long speaker cables

Interesting approach but feasible from a cost and logistics p.o.v.? The other approach, not that uncommon, was to bring a tail (25mm) or at least a 10mm cable from the Henley block to the c.u. adj. to the kit and hard-wire the mains leads to the individual RCBOs, in effect. An armoured cable, used when routing externally, follows more or less this same scenario.

 

[gavreid]

Hence, hard-wiring, as I think you are referring to and which I have, theoretically should be fine UNLESS reg's have changed to obviate this approach.

Regs are evolving constantly. There's been a number of editions since Roy was around. A qualified spark can alwas ask NICEIC for advice on what is permissible.

 

[Cappuccino]

Thanks for everyones input, as stated im not intending to do any of this, as many things do it got me thinking and wondered if this scenario would be allowed and if not why.

having said all that i think i will enquire about a new dedicated CU, yes with T&E and plugs n sockets. But will discuss with sone qualified people just out of curiosity.

one last thing does adding a separate CU with tails etc get rid of DC on the mains or does it come in externally. Surely it comes in externally no

 

[Mike Reed]

Mike, i think most non sparks, I’m sure you’ll be surprised to know i fall into this bracket , refer to single connections as spurs although appreciate it is technically the wrong term.

I think even (maybe the older) some electricians still refer to radials as spurs, by dint of the (almost?) unique roll-out of ring mains after the war in the U.K.. An analogy would be between a van and a car. Both are automotive devices with similar constituents and sizes but no-one would confuse one with the other. It's not just technically inaccurate, they are wholly different types of circuit and with different applications; a bit like cars/vans, if you wish.

Installing a dedicated c.u. would not have any bearing on the mains quality as such, a.f.a.I k. It would simply avoid the domestic rings

 

[Cappuccino]

I think even (maybe the older) some electricians still refer to radials as spurs, by dint of the (almost?) unique roll-out of ring mains after the war in the U.K..

funny you mention this, i only found out the other day that ring mains were only introduced after the war due to shortage of copper. I understand prior to this all outlets were individually wired, mind you i wonder how many sockets a house had pre war.

Bit before my time

 

[Frizzy]

A friend (electrician) installed new separate mains box and two radial lines with gigawatt solid core cu (with shield). Ex value install cable. (£20m) Btw I have 17m of jps in wall mains for sale,I needed longer length for new house.
One digital line one analogue, whole cost less than one high end power cord, dropped noise floor to levels That allow masses more detail to shine thru, also makes things tonally purer with less grain and cleaner dynamics.
Lucky I live in a rural area with quiet mains so this was icing on cake. Original house wiring fitted n sixties, using two main fuse boxes (indoor and outdoor) and very confusing layout. So this seemed a logical sensible step.
Whether or not you are into mains treatment this is a relatively cheap tweek. Personally I prefer to use high quality cabling (kondo, Tara labs) plugs, connectors and distribution blocks (oyaide); no filters, purifiers or regen anywhere on main system. I use a small mains filter from mark grant on Ethernet again on separate circuit to isolate noisy router.
Tested efficacy on friends by wowing them with much improved tv picture, simple but obvious demo, main comment was how cinematic picture became, and tracking on sport was hugely improved. Odd how people believe eyes before ears?
Personally feel best systems pay attention to details, electrical and physical isolation can make average kit sing sweeter than badly configured high end items.

 

[Ian G]

I had to Google 'Gigawatt' cable, not sure that's a sensible name for a mains cable. Looks very much like nyy-j, I bet it's a bloody fortune per m.

 

[Mike Reed]

I bet it's a bloody fortune per m.

Well, £20 per metre according to Frizzy. Paragraphs would be extra, I guess.

 

[Mike Hanson]

My house had a hot tub out back, which the prior owners took with them, leaving a big 12-3 cable running along the side of the house. I had a sparky put two circuits into the kitchen (for the microwave and toaster). The toaster circuit also runs downstairs into my office, which is the mostly dedicated line for my stereo (except during breakfast). Therefore, I never really had a chance to get used to my system here without it.

As I've been building amps, I've had the opportunity to try them throughout the house, including on the kitchen island during assembly and test (using yet another plug which I've been told is the worst run in the house), and in my family room (where my secondary system lives). What have I observed?

• The island plug in the kitchen causes a surprising amount of buzz in the transformers, especially if the microwave and/or dishwasher happen to be running. (Neither of those is physically near there.)
• The plug in my family room results in a quieter performance, but any amp there doesn't sound as good as it does in my office.
• In my office, with the dedicated 12AWG mains wiring, the sound is the most solid, clean, quiet, fast, etc.

Additionally, I had a friend's PS Audio PowerPlant P5 regenerator here for a couple of days. I auditioned his Avondale NCC300 amp that I had just finished with and without the P5 inline. It made highs seem a bit cleaner, but the bass felt slightly less well-defined. I got the impression it wasn't getting the current when it wanted it. My office still sounded better.

In conclusion, I contend that a dedicated mains is worthwhile, if you can do it. If you have really crappy power, you might want a power regenerator (not a conditioner).

On a lark, I bid on a broken PowerPlant P5 on eBay, and won it. I had it shipped to PS Audio, and they fixed it up and returned it to me. I've confirmed my earlier impressions. The P5 cleans up the overall presentation, and the bass is fuller. Unfortunately, it seems to sap some of the detail and life. This is running with my own NCC300 monos.

I'll eventually try it with my QUDOS Voyager monos, and various other gear. At the very least, it will probably do a nice job with the turntable.

 

[iansr]

Well, £20 per metre according to Frizzy. Paragraphs would be extra, I guess.

I thought he meant £20 million

 

[steveinspain]

I posted a question on this thread -
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/power-conditioners-niagara-and-psm.263519/
asking what the potential differences might be between a dedicated mains supply and a power conditioner, but didn't get many replies, so hope it's ok to ask the same thing here. Could well have been just too dull..
This is what I asked -

As someone who knows nothing about all this what might be the difference between a power conditioner and a dedicated mains supply in terms of what effect it might have on the sound?
I guess the idea of a clean supply /dedicated mains is to remove potential noise from other electrical equipment, and doesn't a power conditioner do the same thing?
Sorry if this is a very basic question, and if anyone replies please keep it suitably simple!
If any of you with a bit of knowledge and experience felt like explaining I'd be grateful - there is no way to tell if a clean supply will be a better way to spend money until it's in and paid for, but a black box might be returnable...

 

[Amber Audio]

Are you experiencing problems, clicks, pops or hums?

My take fwiw is if you can install a dedicated supply with its own CU do so, it is usually pretty cheap in the context of the hifi system it supplies, and it satisfies audiophile nervosa. If you can’t and have noisy mains try and borrow or sale/return a conditioner or dc blocker.

Appears to be some worth in certain situations but a lot of companies making easy money with some of their offerings. Do some reading up and look at internal shots of the conditioner. Seems to me that some of this stuff is bodged from IT UPS battery backups the like I use for Servers and Comms cabs, it apart from supplying power in a black out for a shortish period sorts out any over or under voltage by trimming or boosting the voltage and guards against spikes/fluctuations in the sine wave, that’s what I’d call a conditioner.

There are very expensive Balanced (splits the AC in half then does stuff with the phase) and Regenerator (converts to DC, cleans then reverts to AC) boxes available, aiui balanced could pose a safety issue so best check with a sparky. Regenerators are supposed to fix the problem some people hear with a conditioner - the effect it impacts the music, less bass or reduced dynamics.

Personally I’ll be going the dedicated mains CU route, I have waited until my hifi is at a point I’m happy I know what to get the sparky to install, number(type of sockets etc. I know it’s probably overkill but it’s gonna be part of a bigger job so only a small cost on top.

Hopefully someone will add more info on the differences and correct any of the above if wrong.

 

[misterdog]

There are very expensive Balanced (splits the AC in half then does stuff with the phase) and Regenerator (converts to DC, cleans then reverts to AC) boxes available

Then there are balanced mains transformers without the 'audio magic' label attached which are not expensive.

https://airlinktransformers.com/product/standard-balanced-power-supply-bps2020

I'm surprised someone has not applied the audio magic label to the 100 Amp incoming fuse. I could get some silver plated and put a directional sticker on, £ 250 each anyone ?
£ 400 for a purple one.

Properly engineered kit does not need a 'special' supply. Hi-Fi engineers who know what they are doing use a high PSRR, and filter internally.

 

[Amber Audio]

Then there are balanced mains transformers without the 'audio magic' label attached which are not expensive.

https://airlinktransformers.com/product/standard-balanced-power-supply-bps2020

I'm surprised someone has not applied the audio magic label to the 100 Amp incoming fuse. I could get some silver plated and put a directional sticker on, £ 250 each anyone ?
£ 400 for a purple one.

Properly engineered kit does not need a 'special' supply. Hi-Fi engineers who know what they are doing use a high PSRR, and filter internally.

We’ve used their kit at work - IT system. This is what I had in the back of my mind about safety

Question 7) Are the power supplies compatible with equipment that are fitted with single pole power switch.

Answer: Equipment to be used with a balanced power supply should employ double-pole switches to ensure that the equipment is fully isolated when the power is in the off position. Most good quality audio and video equipment uses double-pole switches.​

 

[Barrymagrec]

funny you mention this, i only found out the other day that ring mains were only introduced after the war due to shortage of copper. I understand prior to this all outlets were individually wired, mind you i wonder how many sockets a house had pre war.

Bit before my time

My grandmothers house in Vauxhall Bridge Road had 2 15amp round pin sockets, both in the basement and the rest of the house had a 5 amp round pin socket in most of the other rooms (4 floors, 2 rooms per floor). This arrangement was installed in the mid thirties and remained until it was demolished in 1968. No electricity at all before that.

 

[Ian G]

Then there are balanced mains transformers without the 'audio magic' label attached which are not expensive.

https://airlinktransformers.com/product/standard-balanced-power-supply-bps2020

I'm surprised someone has not applied the audio magic label to the 100 Amp incoming fuse. I could get some silver plated and put a directional sticker on, £ 250 each anyone ?
£ 400 for a purple one.

Properly engineered kit does not need a 'special' supply. Hi-Fi engineers who know what they are doing use a high PSRR, and filter internally.

Indeed,

If you were actually allowed to touch the incoming fuse Russ Andrews would already have a range of tricked up versions for the gullable audiophile.

 

[Mike Reed]

Your first para puts it succinctly, Amber. I've no experience with conditioners apart from on my hair and I hate the oily muck! I do have experience of dedicated radial supplies and if your system warrants it (and not just in cost but in types of kit etc.) then it is the ultimate way to go. There are many ways of installing radials, from sticking one onto your existing consumer unit to going the full monte with separate c.u. and separate radials per piece of kit to hard-wiring (if allowed in current reg's).

Regenerators work, by all accounts and from a local hifi associate's experience with upmarket kit, but they're costly for a decent voltage, need to be sited somewhere and to my mind, are a complicated way round things (theoretically, that is). I eschew anything which uses filters of any kind or has the potential to increase impedance.



As far as dedicated supplies are concerned, the first ting to do is work out the cable route from adj to kit and the incoming mains/meter. This represents labour only. In my case, this would have been prohibitive if I hadn't routed 8 x approx 12 metres of T & E myself.

 

[misterdog]

We’ve used their kit at work - IT system. This is what I had in the back of my mind about safety

Switch the transformer off when not in use.

I use an Airlink BMU for my Quad ESL's. in fact everything is connected to it.

 

[steveinspain]

Are you experiencing problems, clicks, pops or hums?

My take fwiw is if you can install a dedicated supply with its own CU do so, it is usually pretty cheap in the context of the hifi system it supplies, and it satisfies audiophile nervosa. If you can’t and have noisy mains try and borrow or sale/return a conditioner or dc blocker.

Appears to be some worth in certain situations but a lot of companies making easy money with some of their offerings. Do some reading up and look at internal shots of the conditioner. Seems to me that some of this stuff is bodged from IT UPS battery backups the like I use for Servers and Comms cabs, it apart from supplying power in a black out for a shortish period sorts out any over or under voltage by trimming or boosting the voltage and guards against spikes/fluctuations in the sine wave, that’s what I’d call a conditioner.

There are very expensive Balanced (splits the AC in half then does stuff with the phase) and Regenerator (converts to DC, cleans then reverts to AC) boxes available, aiui balanced could pose a safety issue so best check with a sparky. Regenerators are supposed to fix the problem some people hear with a conditioner - the effect it impacts the music, less bass or reduced dynamics.

Personally I’ll be going the dedicated mains CU route, I have waited until my hifi is at a point I’m happy I know what to get the sparky to install, number(type of sockets etc. I know it’s probably overkill but it’s gonna be part of a bigger job so only a small cost on top.

Hopefully someone will add more info on the differences and correct any of the above if wrong.

Thank you for that!
I've never heard any clicks or other noises so have no idea what if any difference a dedicated supply might make. Just like I've got no idea what a conditioner might do for me. Running in a dedicated supply to the music room will involve about 20m outside that could be run in trunking that was fixed to the soffit. I don't know enough but hopefully it doesn't need to be armoured. Floors can't be lifted to allow cable to run underneath.
I guess I should get a quote from an electrician and find out how much of the installation I can do, and try to find a dealer who will allow me a home trial of a conditioner, and as I know no other I'll ask Puritan Audio.