Dealer Integrity

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I disagree with this. I think it's possible to be straight and honest with people and still make profit. I buy and sell turntables, usually damaged or faulty ones which I fix, and I tell people the truth. Sometimes people do walk away when you tell them you bought the until faulty and fixed it to sell on but the most common reaction is 'I appreciate your honesty'. If you make a bit of money on the sale and the buyer saves money, what's wrong with that?. Last turntable I sold I made about £90 on it and the buyer saved £140 on list. Both happy.

When I buy a car I expect to get money off but I'm not unreasonable about it. If the car is already a good price I don't try and screw the dealer too far, I recognise they have to make a profit and want them to give me good service and look forward to selling me another car!

If you resent the fact that a dealer makes profit from you then I can see how you might not be happy with this idea but if not then it's perfectly possible to deal with people honestly.

I agree with this, but I'm not sure it's really a challenge to h.g's point. I think he was arguing that it's naive for one party to a deal, to expect the other party to act against their own interests in favour of that party. It suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of business, and to mix that up with ethics is naive.

Your point is a little different. You could argue that honesty is in your interests, given the nature of your business, because not telling somebody about a bit of history they may discover later would, in the longer term, undermine your reputation and harm your business. Better to lose a sale, short term, than prejudice your longer term prospects. When you're selling a new product, there's no such 'history' to be discovered (though if the dealer knew, say, that the box had been dropped from a height, albeit everything seemed fine, I'd expect them to be honest about that and reflect it in the price).

 

[YNWOAN]

38 years ago I was gifted a weihrauch hw80 air rifle (a new model at the time). I recently discovered that this exact same model is not only still made but no changes have been made to it in all that time (mine still works flawlessly)!

 

[darrenyeats]

The dealer could be holding their cards close to their chest, or maybe they just don't know. How can you tell?

I've done my own research, including contacting the manufacturer, before spending a large sum on hi-fi. Even that's no guarantee but it's the best way I know.

 

[hifinutt]

I don`t think its a matter of integrity , the new model may not be as good , how do they know if its 6 months off ? better and more honest to sell what they do know and experience

 

[Mr Pig]

Your point is a little different. You could argue that honesty is in your interests, given the nature of your business, because not telling somebody about a bit of history they may discover later would, in the longer term, undermine your reputation and harm your business.

Yes, but this is just as true for a shop. If you discover that the shop has 'hoodwinked' you in some way you may well decide not to buy from them again.

In fact it's more true for a large retailer than it is for me. I just sell stuff as a paying hobby, I don't have repeat customers. I try to be fair and honest with buyers because it's the right thing to do and I like to have a clear conscience.

 

[YNWOAN]

52 updates. Can’t recall that.

By the time Naim started on the ‘pots replacement’ nonsense I had left the business in pursuit of a life.

 

[Tony L]

I agree with this, but I'm not sure it's really a challenge to h.g's point. I think he was arguing that it's naive for one party to a deal, to expect the other party to act against their own interests in favour of that party. It suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of business, and to mix that up with ethics is naive.

FWIW I think the thread-premise of ‘6 months’ is ridiculous, for a start no dealer would ever be in the loop to that extent. If the dealer already has the MkII version sitting in the store-room ready for a release next week then, yes, I feel they should be honest and admit that and offer a discount. Selling a product that will clearly take a hit in value so soon is dishonest and likely to lose them repeat business. With a business like high-end/boutique audio you really want to keep customers long-term rather than focus on shifting a single box.

By saying that just look at the phone and computer market! Apple etc never discount at all, even just before a well publicised WDC event or whatever where new models will inevitably be announced and often in the stores the next day. Their customer base mainly understand this and buy products at a particular point in the product lifespan, e.g. I’m in the market for an iPad Pro, but I’m certainly waiting until the new one comes out in a month or two.

 

[Caledon1297]

38 years ago I was gifted a weihrauch hw80 air rifle (a new model at the time). I recently discovered that this exact same model is not only still made but no changes have been made to it in all that time (mine still works flawlessly)!

Damn heavy, though (relatively speaking)! But I guess that's the price you pay for quality.

The HW80 is a mere youngster, though - the HW35 is also still in production, and apparently it was introduced in 1951! (don't know if it's unchanged over that time, though )

 

[Mr Pig]

Apple etc never discount at all, even just before a well publicised WDC event or whatever where new models will inevitably be announced and often in the stores the next day.

The new model is invariably much more expensive and secondly, Apple buyers are feckin' idiots! ;0)

 

[Mr Pig]

38 years ago I was gifted a weihrauch hw80 air rifle ..

A friend of mine had one of those, about 35 years ago! He 'boosted' it with a stronger spring and it was one serous air rifle.

Always fancied picking up a nice target pistol but I've never gotten around to it.

 

[YNWOAN]

Damn heavy, though (relatively speaking)! But I guess that's the price you pay for quality.

The HW80 is a mere youngster, though - the HW35 is also still in production, and apparently it was introduced in 1951! (don't know if it's unchanged over that time, though )

Absolutely - in fact the HW35 is what my dad had - and I don’t think it has changed either!

 

[h.g.]

A seller and buyer have directly conflicting interests. To expect a seller to act in the best interests of a buyer at the expense of their own is foolish. To view a failure to do this as a matter of integrity is doubly foolish.

I disagree with this. I think it's possible to be straight and honest with people and still make profit.

This doesn't seem to follow. Whether a seller is honest or not would seem to be completely independent of whether the buyer has lost the plot or not. I commented on honesty later in the same post.

To use the OP's example of whether it would be dishonest for a seller not to voluntarily inform a buyer that a model is scheduled to be updated in 6 months. The answer is no because the seller is not acting on behalf of the buyer he is acting on behalf of an entity with conflicting interests. This is relevant when it comes to examining integrity.

If the buyer asks the seller is the model going to be replaced in the near future then a breach of integrity might occur. If the seller lies and says no then that is a breach of integrity with the buyer. If the seller avoids answering in ways that do not involve lying then that is not a breach but hands an advantage to the buyer in negotiation. If the seller says yes then that might be a breach of integrity with an employer and/or the manufacturer or it might not depending on circumstances and it hands an advantage to the buyer.

 

[Mr Pig]

To use the OP's example of whether it would be dishonest for a seller not to voluntarily inform a buyer that a model is scheduled to be updated in 6 months...

I broadly agree with you but there are so many variables I think it's pointless to argue about it. Honesty and integrity aren't the same thing. A dealer could have the new speaker in the back of the shop and technically, he's not being dishonest if he doesn't tell you about it. What about the relationship with the manufacturer? Do they allow discounting of their products? Will they compensate you for selling off the old model cheaper? You could go round in circles on this forever.

 

[Spike]

38 years ago I was gifted a weihrauch hw80 air rifle (a new model at the time). I recently discovered that this exact same model is not only still made but no changes have been made to it in all that time (mine still works flawlessly)!

Great springer. There have been many small changes over the years, including the Rekord trigger, probably one of the greatest trigger units built for a springer. All are retrofittable. The only thing is Weihrauch never said MK 2 or 3...

 

[Spike]

Damn heavy, though (relatively speaking)! But I guess that's the price you pay for quality.

The HW80 is a mere youngster, though - the HW35 is also still in production, and apparently it was introduced in 1951! (don't know if it's unchanged over that time, though )

Only for weaklings!

 

[Spike]

A friend of mine had one of those, about 35 years ago! He 'boosted' it with a stronger spring and it was one serous air rifle.

Always fancied picking up a nice target pistol but I've never gotten around to it.

The HW80 was originally made in collaboration with a US importer and so was good for twice the UK power. You don’t need to change the spring. Its good for twice the power with the existing spring. It’s limited to 12ft/lbs in UK. Which it is almost on the nose. If he has upped the power he is breaking the law or requires a FAC and serious fines/jail term if discovered. Also loses a lot of precision.

 

[Dowser]

The HW80 was originally made in collaboration with a US importer and so was good for twice the UK power. You don’t need to change the spring. Its good for twice the power with the existing spring. It’s limited to 12ft/lbs in UK. Which it is almost on the nose. If he has upped the power he is breaking the law or requires a FAC and serious fines/jail term if discovered. Also loses a lot of precision.

My gamekeeper Uncle sorted one for me too when I was 13 or 14 - it wasn’t double springed , but was modified somehow with a larger spring - damned thing would punch a clean hole through a milk bottle from 10 metres without breaking the bottle (round heads, not flat). I very quickly was no longer allowed to join fake war battles with my friends and their crappy BSAs

I never noticed a lack of precision, it was good for rabbits from around 20 metres away. But it did regularly require new seals between barrel and stock.

 

[Dowser]

A seller and buyer have directly conflicting interests. To expect a seller to act in the best interests of a buyer at the expense of their own is foolish. To view a failure to do this as a matter of integrity is doubly foolish. Whether as employee or owner the seller's job is to maximise profits for the shop and having old stock on hand when a new model comes out is likely to hurt profit. If you are an informed buyer then this is useful information when negotiating the price. If you are an uninformed buyer then expect to pay top price and get caught out by the arrival of new models.

If you were interacting with an employee of the shop and that employee lost a sale due to acting in the best interests of the buyer and not their employer then indeed there is a question of integrity: the employee is not acting in the best interests of the employer who is paying them a wage to act in their best interest. If you were interacting with the owner of the shop then this doesn't apply.

Lying to a buyer in order to make a sale would be crossing the line for most except in circumstances where it is accepted by both parties that the seller will be lying. This can happen sometimes when haggling and transparently false reasons are put forward to move the price.

Pretending to be acting in the best interest of the buyer would be crossing the line for me but some buyers expect this from the seller in which case it arguably isn't crossing the line.

Audiophile foo is another one where integrity is tricky. Some people genuinely believe in a range of audiophile foo and so is it crossing the line for a seller to go along with the relevant beliefs in order to make a sale? If they were to pipe up like an enthusiastic audiophile objectivist the sale is very likely to be lost and they would be failing in their job. My view would be probably no if the belief is genuinely held but probably yes if the belief is uncertainly held. I would judge the latter to be lying to make a sale.

Integrity is an interesting topic given how differently people can look at the simple process of exchanging money for goods.

This is why I was never any good selling hifi - when I first travelled in Australia I got a job at a hifi shop, but just could not sell the tat the owner wanted me to (mostly based on his margins) and would actively steer people toward better products...even if they weren’t stocked Luckily I could repair the stuff too, so was quickly moved to the back room!

 

[Spike]

My gamekeeper Uncle sorted one for me too when I was 13 or 14 - it wasn’t double springed , but was modified somehow with a larger spring - damned thing would punch a clean hole through a milk bottle from 10 metres without breaking the bottle (round heads, not flat). I very quickly was no longer allowed to join fake war battles with my friends and their crappy BSAs

I never noticed a lack of precision, it was good for rabbits from around 20 metres away. But it did regularly require new seals between barrel and stock.

They don’t need a new a double spring or bigger spring. Never have. The spring that’s in is good for about 20ft/lbs. it is limited. He just removed the limiter and allowed it to output it’s full potential. Highly illegal and open to the same sentences as having an unlicensed firearm! It’s good for rabbits at 30 yards in its limited state. I’ve take out rats and rabbits well over 20 yards. Precision does go as you get much more of a recoil.

 

[Dowser]

They don’t need a new a double spring or bigger spring. Never have. The spring that’s in is good for about 20ft/lbs. it is limited. He just removed the limiter and allowed it to output it’s full potential. Highly illegal and open to the same sentences as having an unlicensed firearm! It’s good for rabbits at 30 yards in its limited state. I’ve take out rats and rabbits well over 20 yards. Precision does go as you get much more of a recoil.

Ah, OK, thanks. On the legality - this was around 40 years ago. The people most concerned with the power was the guy I shot in the leg with a flat head and then needed to pull the pellet out with his jeans (it didn’t pierce the jeans, just his leg)...all the while begging him not to tell his mum...