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David Amess MP stabbed in Leigh-On-Sea

They were not neutralised: with blood on their hands they became the 3,6 & 7th Prime Ministers of Israel. Terrorism was no longer required by then as they had won; except to murder the 5th Prime Minister, Yitzhak Rabin, because he was trying to make a just peace.
Yes Begin was leader of terrorist group Irgun.
Anyway his motivation should come out in the trial.

The Irgun and Stern Gang were indeed neutralised. The Hagannah was not a terrorist organisation, but a perfectly legitimate military organisation. Likud was and is a political party, and not a terrorist organisation. It was Begin, incidentally, who as PM and leader of the Likud made peace with Egypt in 1978-9.
I don't know what trial you are referring to. Or what Rabin has to do with the terrorist groups that existed in the 1940s.
 
A friend pointed out a couple of things to me yesterday: his death, and that of women killed by men, are being treated very differently. Nobody is suggesting he should have called 888, or flagged down a taxi or bus, or in any way implied there was any reason he should take responsibility for his safety rather than society blame his killer. Also, this was quickly classed as terrorism, unlike the incel shooting spree earlier this year.
 
I've always wondered how the sane/insane thing works. I know there are guidelines, like "aware of what they are doing" and so on, but it must be difficult. One would think that any serial killer is mad as a hatter, but apparently, legally, some are and some are not.
 
@PaulMB I’ll try and remember the phrase considered by medics when doing the assessments. It’s been a while since I was involved in all of that…
 
I've always wondered how the sane/insane thing works. I know there are guidelines, like "aware of what they are doing" and so on, but it must be difficult. One would think that any serial killer is mad as a hatter, but apparently, legally, some are and some are not.

There is a clear division between mental illness, e.g. bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, depression etc, and fixed personality traits such as psychopathic or sociopathic behaviour. I suspect legal assessment is really only detecting the former, the latter just is what it is and can’t be cured.
 
There is a clear division between mental illness, e.g. bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, depression etc, and fixed personality traits such as psychopathic or sociopathic behaviour. I suspect legal assessment is really only detecting the former, the latter just is what it is and can’t be cured.

So are you saying that a murderer suffering from schizophrenia and depression would be considered "insane" and go to a mental hospital, while a murderer who, through no fault of his own, was born or became a violent psychopath would hang? Here in Italy there is a formula: "Capace di intendere e di volere," which roughly translates a "Capable of understanding and willing", used to determine if criminals are sane or not. And also to establish the validity of a last will and testament. But while it makes perfect sense for writing a will, it seems very vague for crime.
 
@PaulMB I remembered the phrase; ‘acute mental health crisis’, but this is for detention under S136 - not arrested for a serious offence.
 
So are you saying that a murderer suffering from schizophrenia and depression would be considered "insane" and go to a mental hospital, while a murderer who, through no fault of his own, was born or became a violent psychopath would hang?

I’m not really saying anything and I’m not qualified to comment, though my suspicion observing how these things are described is that division between temporary illness and fixed personality type is what is being assessed. We do tend to lock violent psychopaths up for the duration. Again this isn’t my area and things have changed beyond any recognition since my short time in mental healthcare 40 years ago, e.g. it is a whole different Mental Health Act now (I was trained using the now obsolete 1959 act).

PS I oppose the death penalty in any scenario.
 
So are you saying that a murderer suffering from schizophrenia and depression would be considered "insane" and go to a mental hospital, while a murderer who, through no fault of his own, was born or became a violent psychopath would hang? Here in Italy there is a formula: "Capace di intendere e di volere," which roughly translates a "Capable of understanding and willing", used to determine if criminals are sane or not. And also to establish the validity of a last will and testament. But while it makes perfect sense for writing a will, it seems very vague for crime.
It’s essentially the same here. Were they able to reason and make rational choices when they killed? For example, even someone with a diagnosed psychotic illness like schizophrenia could be convicted of murder and imprisoned if they were deemed to be free of schizophrenic signs and symptoms at the time of the crime, ie they were capable of reasoning and making choices in the period concerned.
A difficult life experience as a child, previous medical consultations for mental health issues or untreatable personality disorder like psychopathy/ antisocial personality disorder are no barrier to a murder conviction if the accused was deemed to be responsible for their actions at the time of the offence.
 
So are you saying that a murderer suffering from schizophrenia and depression would be considered "insane" and go to a mental hospital, while a murderer who, through no fault of his own, was born or became a violent psychopath would hang? Here in Italy there is a formula: "Capace di intendere e di volere," which roughly translates a "Capable of understanding and willing", used to determine if criminals are sane or not. And also to establish the validity of a last will and testament. But while it makes perfect sense for writing a will, it seems very vague for crime.
This might help: Mental Health Conditions and Disorders: Draft Prosecution Guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service (cps.gov.uk)
 
Thanks, Cav and Decameron. As I suspected it seems to be an enormous can of worms, but it could hardly be otherwise.
 
The shocking thing about the Amess murder, seen from outside the UK, is that it seems to strike at the base of an ordered, civilised and globally admired (rightly or wrongly) political system, in a country where the police are unarmed. The kind of thing that happened in Italy and Germany in the 1970s with the Red Brigades and the RAF, or that one reads about in books about the Balkan wars of the turn of the century.
 
Just a point of procedure - murder suspects are subject to a mental health assessment, by a trained NHS pro, pre and post charge.
Quite right too, and as others have said, a can of worms to work out who's capable and who not. Is a serial killer automatically insane? No, some people are just criminals. They want to carry out criminal acts and will choose that route over a straight path. I'm fortunate, I've only ever known one, a lad I went to school with. He made your skin crawl. My dad taught him before I met him and warned me about him, my dad reckoned that he was the only 13 year old kid who actually scared him in 30-odd years of teaching.
 
It’s essentially the same here. Were they able to reason and make rational choices when they killed? For example, even someone with a diagnosed psychotic illness like schizophrenia could be convicted of murder and imprisoned if they were deemed to be free of schizophrenic signs and symptoms at the time of the crime, ie they were capable of reasoning and making choices in the period concerned.
A difficult life experience as a child, previous medical consultations for mental health issues or untreatable personality disorder like psychopathy/ antisocial personality disorder are no barrier to a murder conviction if the accused was deemed to be responsible for their actions at the time of the offence.
Mens rea and Actus reus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
A truly fascinating subject, studied it at A level after I finished an OND in Electronics and Electrical Engineering.
 
Quite right too, and as others have said, a can of worms to work out who's capable and who not. Is a serial killer automatically insane? No, some people are just criminals. They want to carry out criminal acts and will choose that route over a straight path. I'm fortunate, I've only ever known one, a lad I went to school with. He made your skin crawl. My dad taught him before I met him and warned me about him, my dad reckoned that he was the only 13 year old kid who actually scared him in 30-odd years of teaching.

Do you know what became of him?
 
Do you know what became of him?
Aged 14 he was taken to a special school.
Last heard of him aged 25. He'd been in a drugs gang in Nottingham, got caught, turned Queens to lower his sentence, went to prison. Came out and uncharacteristically foolishly returned to small home town. The rest I read vin the paper. The gang found him and broke into his flat to do him some serious harm. His girlfriend got a bit roughed up, fortunately nothing worse. He escaped, jumped out of a window and legged it. This was aged 25, not heard of him since. I don't want to.
 
Quite right too, and as others have said, a can of worms to work out who's capable and who not. Is a serial killer automatically insane? No, some people are just criminals. They want to carry out criminal acts and will choose that route over a straight path. I'm fortunate, I've only ever known one, a lad I went to school with. He made your skin crawl. My dad taught him before I met him and warned me about him, my dad reckoned that he was the only 13 year old kid who actually scared him in 30-odd years of teaching.

I worked with medics in mental health as the operation police liaison for over 10 years. My lasting impression is they knew their stuff, and were happy to explain things. Quickly went beyond my comprehension, tho ;)

Mens rea and Actus reus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
A truly fascinating subject, studied it at A level after I finished an OND in Electronics and Electrical Engineering.

It is. IMHO Knowledge of points to prove in various criminal offences is a good starting point to consider when voicing opinions, as well.
 


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