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DACs.. again?!

T

Tenson

Trade: AudioSmile
What will it take to convince people that nearly all DACs sound the same these days? Even more so than amps, the performance of most modern DACs is so far beyond audibility it is amazes me to see such a lot of discussion about them.

Is it one of the last remaining areas of tweak-ability left with computer audio?

No really, it's not just a wind-up, I want to know how those who don't agree with the above can be convinced?
 
Tenson said:
What will it take to convince people that nearly all DACs sound the same these days?
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Simply not true IME, and many even have buttons to flip between different filter settings, so even a single DAC usually possesses different voicings, e.g. my two Sony CD players each have a choice of four or five different filters.
 
I do hope they're not all the same. I live in hope of one day being able to purchase something, for reasonable money, that comes anywhere near the quality of my vinyl setup.
 
I have a cheap dac £50 and a rega dac and to my ears the rega Is alot better. More of every thing. Is the cheap dac better than the sound card of my mac? Just not by much.
 
Tenson said:
What will it take to convince people that nearly all DACs sound the same these days? Even more so than amps, the performance of most modern DACs is so far beyond audibility it is amazes me to see such a lot of discussion about them.

Is it one of the last remaining areas of tweak-ability left with computer audio?

No really, it's not just a wind-up, I want to know how those who don't agree with the above can be convinced?
Click to expand...

I think some Dacs do sound the same i couldnt for example tell the difference between a Sansia clip and my old DPA dac level matched, i also tried this with the Dacmagic and the Eastern Electric Dac again level matched flicking between the two at random i could figure out which was the EE dac most of the time, partly i think because i knew what to hear out for in the sound.

If you think all Dacs sound the same you should try a Dacmagic Plus, MDAC or the Essence One, all measure perfectly and yet the characters the three Dacs are very different!
What i will say is that these cheaper Dacs are very good indeed now and you dont have to spend much money to get something that sounds great and has excellent functionality.

And Simon, i dont think you really believe it yourself, if you did why would replace the output transformers on the perfectly good DEQX? ;)
 
Tenson said:
What will it take to convince people that nearly all DACs sound the same these days? Even more so than amps, the performance of most modern DACs is so far beyond audibility it is amazes me to see such a lot of discussion about them.

Is it one of the last remaining areas of tweak-ability left with computer audio?

No really, it's not just a wind-up, I want to know how those who don't agree with the above can be convinced?
Click to expand...

The idea that DACs are among the 'last remaining' areas of tweakability re: computer audio is deeply peculiar on every level . . . as if so many aspects of digital audio have already proven to be nonsense. The reality is that many computer-based digital transport/streamers are still first generation products. We're only just getting started . . .

As far as audibility thresholds go, the transport, DAC and preamp are all in the same ballpark as amplifiers: they're all quite different - just look at HiFi World's February Issue lab test of SPDIF converters, and how exactly it correlates to listening impressions.

What would it take to convince people this isn't true? Er . . . I really don't know: a willingness to ignore evidence and experience in favour of a bribe? One of those tests with cats and hot metal plates? Intensive hallucinogenic brainwashing?
 
Speaker manufacturers like to think of themselves as the Mathematicians of the scientists' pecking order! “Nothing matters apart from (usually our) speakers.”

To be fair, the speaker/room interaction is probably the single biggest factor in the accuracy and enjoyability of a system, so it's an understandable viewpoint.

You must understand that we Men in Sheds don't get out much: I'm always banging on about the importance of the digital source (as you may have noticed) - because it's what I spend most of my time working on. If I step away from the day job, I do know that speakers are more important than computers.
 
Tenson said:
What will it take to convince people that nearly all DACs sound the same these days? Even more so than amps, the performance of most modern DACs is so far beyond audibility it is amazes me to see such a lot of discussion about them.

Is it one of the last remaining areas of tweak-ability left with computer audio?

No really, it's not just a wind-up, I want to know how those who don't agree with the above can be convinced?
Click to expand...

i'm wondering what have you heard recently that made you thinking that the DACs today sound the same? my experience is actually completely different, as for many years a clear division was into NOS and OS camps. i spent quite some time in a recent year(s) with audiolab MDAC, m2tech young and naim nDAC and was astonished with how different they sounded (and how the price difference also corresponded with it). i believe the differences are much more prominent these days than, say, 5-10 years ago.
 
Tenson said:
What will it take to convince people that nearly all DACs sound the same these days? Even more so than amps, the performance of most modern DACs is so far beyond audibility it is amazes me to see such a lot of discussion about them.

Is it one of the last remaining areas of tweak-ability left with computer audio?

No really, it's not just a wind-up, I want to know how those who don't agree with the above can be convinced?
Click to expand...

I'm assuming that this is a poke at my thread with the same name?

I agree a lot of DACs do sound the same, but some dacs sound slightly different. It's those DACs which I'm asking about.

I've heard warm dacs and I've heard cold DACs.

I've level matched A/B'd a Benchmark against a Lavry and myself and others could tell the slightly clearer top and deeper bottom end of the Benchmark, while the lavry had a slight widening of the image.

By the way , are you going to refund all the people that you ripped off by doing mods to their Behringers? You've just admitted that DACs sound the same. That must include the Behringer before/after your mods.. or are your mods somehow special and exempt from your above statement ?

On a serious note, why even bother with an external DAC. Your computer has a built in DAC. Mine actually sounds quite good and can do 24/192 (not that I'd want to as I don't believe in HD audio). Why do all these people "upgrade" their computer DACs to external ones if they sound the same ?
 
Marc303 said:
By the way , are you going to refund all the people that you ripped off by doing mods to their Behringers? You've just admitted that DACs sound the same. That must include the Behringer before/after your mods.. or are your mods somehow special and exempt from your above statement ?
Click to expand...

Good point :D ??

 
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Tony L said:
Simply not true IME, and many even have buttons to flip between different filter settings, so even a single DAC usually possesses different voicings, e.g. my two Sony CD players each have a choice of four or five different filters.
Click to expand...

Okay fair point, lets exclude frequency response variation since that can easily be adjusted by your tone control. Apart from that, the filter settings do very little audible as far as I know.
 
Marc303 said:
By the way , are you going to refund all the people that you ripped off by doing mods to their Behringers? You've just admitted that DACs sound the same. That must include the Behringer before/after your mods.. or are your mods somehow special and exempt from your above statement ?
Click to expand...

Actually the mods are not magic, but the stock DEQ2496 has a particularly bad output stage with IMD popping in to the audible range. If it were just a DAC I'd tell people to buy something else. The functionality makes it worth the tweaking to correct that one flaw IMO. It's one of the only items I've seen like this and I don't know why they made it that way.
 
Tenson said:
Actually the mods are not magic, but the stock DEQ2496 has a particularly bad output stage with IMD popping in to the audible range. If it were just a DAC I'd tell people to buy something else. The functionality makes it worth the tweaking to correct that one flaw IMO. It's one of the only items I've seen like this and I don't know why they made it that way.
Click to expand...

Do you think you could tell the difference between the one with, and one without the mod in level matched a blind test? :)
 
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