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D&D 8c vs ATC SCM100ASL vs Grimm LS1be - live online comparison

John Phillips said:
The amplifier packs in my current-model consumer SCM50ASL classics have two holes giving screwdriver access to pre-set-type potentiometers. One is for trimming the gain and one for trimming the bass. I think current professional versions also have this (I have seen this in photographs).

The pre-sets are, indeed, probably meant to be "adjust-and-forget" on installation and not for frequent knob-twiddling, so it seems appropriate to do it this way.

I haven't needed the bass trim yet. Perhaps I would in a different room. The bass response with the 50ASLs placed 0.9 metres away from the front wall in my current room is remarkably extended without any excess, probably with just a small amount of room gain. Based on this experience, in the video I was surprised to see the 100ASLs placed so close to the front wall. I think that may have brought in more room gain in the bass and I think that was what I heard compared to the other (equalized) loudspeakers.
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Yes the pros have easy adjustable knobs on the rear, the bass has a +- 6dB adjustment, played around with it and the sensitivity option when many moons ago I had the original Pro 20ASL. It’s all on their website. (Edit apologies those knobs might now have gone from a post above but still the option to adjust is mentioned on the site).

I’d never want to play with the classic adjustments, I’d never likely get them back to neutral!
 
My domestic SCM100ASLs had a sensitivity control and a bass lift control - little pre-set pots like John said. Like the guys in the video, I used mine on much higher stands than the vestigial ones that come with them. Worthwhile.
 
John Phillips said:
The amplifier packs in my current-model consumer SCM50ASL classics have two holes giving screwdriver access to pre-set-type potentiometers. One is for trimming the gain and one for trimming the bass. I think current professional versions also have this (I have seen this in photographs).

The pre-sets are, indeed, probably meant to be "adjust-and-forget" on installation and not for frequent knob-twiddling, so it seems appropriate to do it this way.

I haven't needed the bass trim yet. Perhaps I would in a different room. The bass response with the 50ASLs placed 0.9 metres away from the front wall in my current room is remarkably extended without any excess, probably with just a small amount of room gain. Based on this experience, in the video I was surprised to see the 100ASLs placed so close to the front wall. I think that may have brought in more room gain in the bass and I think that was what I heard compared to the other (equalized) loudspeakers.
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Yeah looked like quite a live room as opposed to a mix or mastering room, not listened to the film on headphones to see if you can hear it.

I've got Pro 50s, same trims, by default both are just set to 0 as far as I can tell. Problem with the bass trim is it's only boost, whereas reduction would be helpful in some situations.
 
So you can decide for yourself:

John Mayar
D&D :23
ATC 1:01
Grimm 2:02

James Taylor
D&D :35
ATC 1:12
Grimm 1:56

Bluesy thing
D&D :29
ATC 1:29
Grimm 1:49

Listened on my electrostatic headphones.

Tonality - the D&D and Grimm seemed similar, not a surprise when they are so adjustable. The ATC seemed to have a touch less warmth. "The ATC way" of adjustment is to get a different model! To my tastes, I think 150s would give a warmer result for such a large room, bearing in mind "bass affects more than bass".

Headroom - the D&Ds sounded a little soft in the bass, ATC and Grimm seemed to have headroom (the Grimm whilst also delivering a more full bass which is great). Again, I think ATC 150 Pros would have been a fascinating comparison, for more headroom (with more warmth).

Neutrality - D&Ds and Grimms sounded similar i.e. very nice and this was consistent across these three tracks. ATC were just a tad less warm in the mid with John Mayar and Bluesy thing. But they seemed to take on a different character for the James Taylor where the mid was quite exposed, cold some might say. Maybe the 150 would have warmed things up in an overall impression kind of way for all three tracks. But the fact ATC opened up a big difference just for James Taylor, is quite interesting. One could argue that exposing a big difference on one track shows simply better transparency and neutrality, or that the difference exposed a weakness in the ATC tonality. I'll get popcorn.

Problems with the test (IMO) as follows.

Positioning - I notice the Grimms were positioned wider than the D&Ds and much wider than the ATCs (maybe as much as one metre difference based on mid/tweeter, which is significant). This was likely to have conferred advantage to the Grimm especially, in terms of expansive, enveloping sound, which I did get from the Grimms over headphones.

Loudness - the D&D seemed to be playing the quietest, ATCs louder and Grimm loudest. This was unfair especially to D&D, but also to ATC. After adjusting the volume on my energiser after each switch, the differences in SQ became less of the "wow" kind and more of the "let's listen and think" kind. Don't underestimate this!

The room - IMO it was a big old space, suited more to 150s maybe than 100s, and far bigger than what I guess the D&D is designed for. In a smaller room, I can imagine the D&D delivering what the Grimm delivers - if my imagination is correct it would make them a bargain in the right space. As someone with experience with active Classic 50s in a small but treated space I'd not jump ship; in any event these problems I see with the test leave some important questions unanswered.
 
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The Dutch&Dutch and Grimms are more similar, D&D have the advantage of cardioid response, constant directivity and PEQ, Grimm recommend toe-ing at 45 degrees crossing one metre in front and positioning a metre away from front wall, so quite different in presentation although there is provision in the software for usual 30 degree.
I only ever had the active 50’s here to compare, 150’s would have been fairer fairer in terms of bass extension.
Keith
 
Flat to 20Hz (anechoic) is okay outside. In rooms, some roll off is probably right, but that would depend on room size/gain, speaker positioning etc.
 
The whole process was fascinating to watch and the views expressed from the pro studio listeners was interesting. I viewed the youtube via laptop and £20 Sony headphones. Firstly I liked the music played, not one Diana Krall track that must be a big positive (modern day version of Smoke on the Water track in Guitar shops). For me D&D and Grimms sounded similar in the way the music was presented, giving all the details, no listener fatigue but it sounded a little mohogenized like the nasties sounds taken out so we can listen to the music itself without rain or blizzards. I can certainly live with the D&D set up, really liked it. When I listened to the same track played through the ATC its like the sound came out of the instruments played, like all highlighted as if the instruments took on a living life, some would say its a more honest presentation of what went on in the studio. But with such a presentation I think a lot more will depend on quality of recording, I think on one track the singing for me came over rather harshly. So maybe with ATC we can experience super emotion, enjoyment of way instruments are played but they will also show up maybe flaws in recording, so choosing the speakers one maybe be prepared to take on the rough and smooth....
 
Darren’s post as motivation and a couple of spare minutes this morning before nursery pick up, got me to dig out my ancient Sennheiser HD600s to plug into my iPad.

I still want to check more, I focussed on just the James Taylor track and the D&D /ATC comparison, to keep it simple. I think the point on volume levels is very valid, I do think there is a difference. I also think there is a difference in sound presentation to be heard, but I am struggling to succinctly put into words what I heard as a difference - will revisit later when I have more time.

What is clear to me is that all the sounds I heard sounded nice. Just slightly different, which is not really an accurate or complete appraisal of what was being heard in that room.
 
Further to my previous post I did find the D&D and ATC most interesting because of both being approx in the same price region, while the Grimm are on a different level as to price so in a way I expect them to have more advantages...
 
Romulus said:
Further to my previous post I did find the D&D and ATC most interesting because of both being approx in the same price region, while the Grimm are on a different level as to price so in a way I expect them to have more advantages...
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I take your point, but the SCM100A tested here costs at least 50% more than the 8c. And you will most likely need a separate DAC and/or preamplifier, whereas you can manage without with the 8c.
 
Strictly Stereo said:
I take your point, but the SCM100A tested here costs at least 50% more than the 8c. And you will most likely need a separate DAC and/or preamplifier, whereas you can manage without with the 8c.
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Ah I missed that from the video, you have a good point also I understand that 8c have a room correction facility which could prove very useful in every day use. However the ATC have this magical midrange which has collected such a fan base from consumers, pros and artists such as Pink Floyd...
 
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Just for a thought experiment - If you owned all three for 10 years, would all three be a) reliable, b) serviceable, c) sellable. Ownership of such quality kit is a long term relationship, and not all relationships last long term, and some don't end well at all!
 
and when shelling out large amounts of shekels at the levels required for each of these fantastic sets of speakers, I think I would consider the long term relationship with the product.
 
It’s a personal choice. You could by a purported ‘bomb-proof’ piece of kit and it malfunction inside a month, or after 5 years. Your research to confirm a companies reputation for supporting in either situation is relevant here.
 
Looked like the speakers were set up for the microphones so not quite sure what was the point of the panel's opinions (from a good bit out from 'ideal' locations) had me wondering tbh.
 
musfed said:
Roel from Pura audio (D&D and Kii dealer overhere in the Netherlands) shared his thoughts on his website about this test:

https://pura-audio.nl/en/2020/11/09...er-tests-how-do-you-get-the-most-out-of-them/
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Inspiration from an interesting webstream review of three high-end active speakers

A few days ago, one of my clients introduced me to an interesting initiative and experiment from the Dutch audio platform Alpha Audio: a live webstream in which three top active loudspeakers are reviewed and discussed: the Grimm LS1be with dmf subwoofers (36,000 euros), the ATC SCM100a Pro (22,950 euros) and the Dutch & Dutch 8c (12,000 euros). The webstream already took place on November 1st, but I could still view the stream on Youtube and read the comments on some of the web forums. Very interesting and instructive.

It also made clear to me how important a number of ‘basic principles’ are, to get the most out of listening sessions and reviews, with the goal of determining which loudspeaker offers you the best sound quality. And who doesn’t want that? These basic principles are:
  1. Try ‘blind testing’ as much as possible and really be able to focus on sound quality.
  2. Make sure you can switch back and forth between the candidates during tracks.
  3. Compare with all candidates playing at the same volume.
  4. Make sure you take into account the so-called ‘circle of confusion’.

1. Try ‘blind testing’ as much as possible and really be able to focus on sound quality.

What is the chance of a dealer providing the conditions for a blind test? What is the likelihood of one being able to perform a blind test comparison at home?

2. Make sure you can switch back and forth between the candidates during tracks.

Makes sense, but we'd need to overcome 1 first. Also, how can you switch between speakers with both of them adequately positioned in the room - how would you avoid interaction between the two, how would it work if both should ideally be placed in roughly the same spot?

3. Compare with all candidates playing at the same volume.

Idem.

4. Make sure you take into account the so-called ‘circle of confusion’.

This guy has been indoctrinated by Toole.
 
It’s far simpler to just buy what you like the sound of. Speakers should always be demoed at home though.
 
Woodface said:
It’s far simpler to just buy what you like the sound of. Speakers should always be demoed at home though.
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Indeed. But you need to compare in order to determine what you like, and adequate methodology will help here. (not advocating mono listening or blind testing here)
 
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