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Class D

Bairnstorm

Bairnstorm

pfm Member
This is probably a continuation of a recent thread about Nord amplifiers. It progressed in to a discussion about class D amplification and coincided with my beloved XTC POW1 300 watt class AB power amp dying and having to visit the amp hospital. It is still being repaired and unusually the transformer has gone.

For a few days I coped but decided to try my NAD 7050 in my main system powering KEF Reference 3.2's. These are tricky 4 ohm floorstanders that like a bit of current, something the 300 watt XTC could deliver. It normally powers KEF LS50's.

Having expected the NAD to be a waste of space it proved very capable leading me to think about a class D power that would work with my VTL pre and my vinyl collection.

The aforementioned thread sang the praises of Bel Canto but new they are expensive and second hand prices are unrealistic. If you disagree explain why a REF500 from 2011 is for sale for £1,700 and a new one is £2,500. It makes no sense.

Having been surprised by the NAD I have plumped for the NAD Masters M22, It has Ncore modules.

NAD have brought out a C298 which has the newer Purifi modules in a less expensive box and cheaper power supply. I thought about it but the dealer said the M22 still sounds better. There are deals to be had on the M22 probably because it will be upgraded in the near future. If I don't like it I can send it back.

It arrived on Monday and I have been listening all week with varying results.

Day 1 - Once I connected the supplied earth wire between it and the pre, which stopped a light buzz, it sounded very clear with great bass and full of detail with a touch of filigree detail in the treble. Timbre is natural. Sound sits behind the speakers and doesn't extend too far in to the room so far but the speakers do dissolve away.

Some stuff sounds fantastic like Jethro Tull as acoustic guitar is natural as are vocals. The Anchoress is rather dreamy - beautiful vocals and orchestral strings ethereal.

Changes have occurred over the week. Sometimes it sounds ultra detailed and at others missing familiar clues.

I have heard bits that I haven't heard before and at other times the presentation is different. I wonder if it needs time to bed in?

Soundstage is now extending slightly outside the speakers but depth isn't as good as the XTC although perfectly acceptable.

Tonight I played Porcupine Tree Stupid Dream and it is was mastertape like. If you demoed with this album you would buy it immediately.

I then played Stone Roses Second Coming and it sounded as rough as a badger's posterior. I have heard it sound like this before but it was disappointing. The loping Mani bass line on Breaking in to Heaven wasn't very loping and the guitar pans were flat. It was the same with the Real Me on Quadrophenia although the bass line initially sounded good. That flat sound up to the speakers spoiled the 3d soundstage and the drama.

So pluses - natural sound, good soundstage back from the speakers, cheap to run, looks lovely, very very quiet, black background, powerful 300+ watts, detailed, rhythmic, good dynamics, can sound like mastertape.

Negatives - Some albums great some awful, up to 80db great, over rough, shallow soundstage, sometimes not so rhythmic, dependant on material.

There is so much good here so I am going to persevere and see how it develops. Hopefully if the XTC comes back soon I can compare.
 
I bought this module in a SS fronted casing for under £300 posted. Just fancied a look on the cheap. It’s a bit shrill at the top end but otherwise excellent. Good bass, amazing detail, runs cool and no startup thump.
 
Yes agree 're prices of bel canto . Totally crazy prices on eBay. Sold a nice ref500 s recently for under 900 quid . Heaven knows where these prices are coming from. Stuff just sits there

Some ref500m flew out the door at about 1800 quid recently and some ref1000m at 1250

Occassionaly there are bargains .The pre amps are great though ..last for donkeys and very reliable while sounding good

Nord and kjf audio are reasonable competition to bel canto but I still reckon bc stuff is good build quality
I use Ghent audio class d monoblocks as a cheap option. Feather light and nowhere near bc build quality but they sound great
 
Are you talking about the internals or the casing? The modules are the same? It’s just the casing and quality of connections that makes a difference?. Or do they modify the original module?
I’m pleased with my module and can see in it the possibility of using my RME DAC to tune out it’s brittle highs
 
I recently bought Coherent modded BC ref 1000m. I waited until the sale was at a price I was prepared to pay then took the plunge. I’ve moved from Tripath class D to b&o Ice Power and the difference is interesting. Bass is tighter, more transparent, treble is smoother. Massive over kill to have 500wpc monoblocks driving My tiny ProAc Tablette 10 Sigs (lol). You could say it’s a case of ‘velvet glove/iron fist’ or something like that but I’m happy with the purchase. There’s so much headroom. I’m actually led to consider what incredibly inefficient speakers could I buy next…?
 
It’s funny, I had a similar experience where my amp died and so while it’s being repaired I switched in a class D amp I use for my subs, only to find it’s basically excellent.

At first I was wondering what biases I was battling against (I was expecting not great with poor treble) and what effect they had on perception of how it sounds. I think more time should settle it but as far as I’m aware it’s pretty much transparent and controls the speakers expertly.

I’d quite like to know what a reference standard class D amp would sound like on an analog source. Ie: is it transparent, highlighting poor quality that exists on the source, or is it digital sounding which works great when edges benefit from being sharpened but that makes other things sound odd?
 
Bit rarer, but check out Lindemann. I have a Musicbook 55 bought used from Elite Audio for about a grand, and a great match for my MC Audio speakers. Just stunning really.
 
After 2 active speaker systems with Class D I have reverted to to passive Class A/B.

Whilst I can't blame Class D entirely there were enough traits common to both to irritate me in the longer run to abandon it.

It's not all bad and for subwoofers they (Class D) are probably a good and cheap solution.
 
davidsrsb said:
I would not spend a fortune on a 10 year old class D. They don't last forever and when the capacitors failing kills the output switchers, not easy to repair
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maybe for hypex [ see nord thread] but these bc icepower seem to go on and on . my coherant bc ref 1000 were sold at least 9 years ago, they were s/h then . they then were sold again and are still going to my knowledge . they do seem to last a fair old while .
 
Jezzer said:
I recently bought Coherent modded BC ref 1000m. I waited until the sale was at a price I was prepared to pay then took the plunge. I’ve moved from Tripath class D to b&o Ice Power and the difference is interesting. Bass is tighter, more transparent, treble is smoother. Massive over kill to have 500wpc monoblocks driving My tiny ProAc Tablette 10 Sigs (lol). You could say it’s a case of ‘velvet glove/iron fist’ or something like that but I’m happy with the purchase. There’s so much headroom. I’m actually led to consider what incredibly inefficient speakers could I buy next…?
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yes they were an amazing price . possibly the difference in seriel numbers many have deterred some but they may have been used in an AV system explaining that . having had both the standard bc ref 1000 and coherant modded , i was staggered at what could be done to upgrade them . remarkable
 
while Class D is not the be all and end all . many high end manufactuers like marantz and gato are using class D . all down to speakers i think
 
Do they need a good run in as it does seem to have changed over the week? I am hoping it loosens up and improves the soundstage as there are many positives so far.
 
I had a good read up about the desirable class d amps on audiogon and the consensus there is absolutely yes and to expect things to improve for as many as 500 hours. Similar was true with a bunch of reviews, with some manufacturers like Spectron (RIP) making sure to get a portion of that done before shipping because they thought it was so significant to do so.
 
Sibbers said:
I had a good read up about the desirable class d amps on audiogon and the consensus there is absolutely yes and to expect things to improve for as many as 500 hours. Similar was true with a bunch of reviews, with some manufacturers like Spectron (RIP) making sure to get a portion of that done before shipping because they thought it was so significant to do so.
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Yes I read that. At the moment it sometimes feels as if I have the skeleton without the flesh. Other times it is breathtaking.
 
Sibbers said:
I had a good read up about the desirable class d amps on audiogon and the consensus there is absolutely yes and to expect things to improve for as many as 500 hours. Similar was true with a bunch of reviews, with some manufacturers like Spectron (RIP) making sure to get a portion of that done before shipping because they thought it was so significant to do so.
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Interesting as I recently bought a dual mono Icepower amp from a fellow fishie who descried it as a bit of a bass monster and he wasn’t wrong. It has had fairly light use as, I understand it, and its sound signature seems to have shifted slightly since I first started using it. I have had it up and running off and on for a month or so and it just seems to get better and better. For now it’s connected to a Dynavector pre amp with balanced cables and seems happy driving Obelisks. Its signature is now what I would describe as clean (seems typical for Class D) and doesn’t sound bass heavy so perhaps it’s finally run in; who knows but it’s a great amp.
 
Bairnstorm said:
... At the moment it sometimes feels as if I have the skeleton without the flesh. Other times it is breathtaking.
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Couldn't put it better, from my own experience (Nord hypex). Long term too much familiar/favourite music just seemed devoid of life. Like revisiting a coral reef after a bleaching event. But yes OTOH it made some other music feel stripped bare in a good way, quite stunning.
 
7 hours today and some improvement.

A number of CD's to get me started and all very pleasant then vinyl. Dave Gilmour: mixed results - Rattle that Lock sounded lacklustre but other tracks better and extraordinarily quiet background allowing detail in. Tried Bowie, Diamond Dogs and title same but rest sounded good. The bass occasionally goes awol when a track is busy.

Played Nilsson Schmilsson and only planned to play side 2 for Into the Fire. Bass more pronounced and I would say better that my class Ab. I enjoyed it so much played side one and Early in the Morning is just Harry's voice and organ. Absolute standout - atmospheric, dimensional superb timing.

On to In the Wake of Poseidon (King Crimson). All of side one played well and when I wicked up the last track it stayed together and bass didn't disappear. There is now a bit more 3d and larger soundstage so slowly improving. One thing that is top notch is the extraordinary detail.

Probably about 20 hours so far.
 
I now have a Lyngdorf TDAI3400 Class D (ish), I’m blown away by it, it’s obliterated my Naim Supernait 2, Denafrips Pontus 2 and upgraded Bluesound Node, I haven’t even tried the room correction software yet. This is probably the best amplifier I’ve heard and I’ve had many set ups over the years costing a lot more than this. Also only had it for 5 days so still needs running in.
 
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